PM, I agree that the EU has done some good things but putting and end to fish catch dumping is long overdue and was an appalling rule they imposed in the first place. Despite fishermen complaining bitterly for years that it was stupid and wasteful the EU ignored them until now. Basically the EU is not fit to oversee many of the competencies it has under its control and should stick to the climate, trade and a few other issues, then they would be very acceptable to the vast majority, unfortunately they are doing a marvellous impression of politicians who are only really interested in more and more power whilst filling their bank balances.
Who will you vote for?
- Thread starter BryanDC
- Start date
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
I'll be voting for Widdecombe if I get a chance...
She says it as it is and isn't afraid to upset anyone by doing so..
She says it as it is and isn't afraid to upset anyone by doing so..
And then, if it chooses, the EU Commission can overrule them or force through different legislation. The EP's authority is paper. It is window dressing. It is not a sovereign parliament and can never be because the EU isn't a country and it has no government. It is a construct based on unelected quangos. There is no European electorate, because again the country calling itself EU is fictitious. It doesn't exist. If it isn't a nation state its institutions represent no one and have no democratic mandate.
Hang on! Aren't you just rejecting his comment by saying MEPs have different powers? I believe that he is correct that MEPs cannot enact or repeal legislation on their initiative. The EU's method of generating legislation is certainly not identical to the UK's. In the UK, a government formed from the largest party elected by voters produces the legislation; the European Commission is not elected by voters and has no democratic mandate. In the EU, no legislation can be proposed by any elected person or entity.
It is also true that much EU regulation does not even pass any scrutiny by an elected body.
Many people have been put off the EU by a long-established tendency of Europhiles to tendentiously mis-represent how the EU works - and usually to deny the objective of the EU. It leads sceptics to two opinions: one that Europhiles are surprisingly poorly informed given their support of the EU; and two, that the EU has no further aspiration to democratic legitimacy. The point being that the "European project" does not have sufficient democratic consent to proceed - because there is no real democratic support. No nation in Europe has ever, and probably never will, vote to be subsumed into the EU.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
I agree it's far from ideal, and that's one of the main reasons I'm voting for La Republique en Marche in the European elections (I know, I'm lucky, I can...). I translate from the relevant part of the manifesto (don't anyone say I don't do my research):
"We will make Europe more democratic:
- Give the Parliament the power to initiate legislation
- Allow citizens to participate in the elaboration of legislation. If a million citizens back a proposal, The Council and Parliament must act on it.
- Limit the number of mandates of MEPs to three.
We will make Europe more efficient:
- Reduce the number of European Commissioners.
- Increase the EU's own financial resources without increasing national contributions: carbon tax at the borders and tax on financial transactions."
But again, I'm fortunate in that I can vote for MEPs who will actually be there to try and reform the EU. If you're not in it, you can't influence it...
"We will make Europe more democratic:
- Give the Parliament the power to initiate legislation
- Allow citizens to participate in the elaboration of legislation. If a million citizens back a proposal, The Council and Parliament must act on it.
- Limit the number of mandates of MEPs to three.
We will make Europe more efficient:
- Reduce the number of European Commissioners.
- Increase the EU's own financial resources without increasing national contributions: carbon tax at the borders and tax on financial transactions."
But again, I'm fortunate in that I can vote for MEPs who will actually be there to try and reform the EU. If you're not in it, you can't influence it...
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
We are already a sovereign nation...why we're even discussing the relative merits of the EU/EP is immaterial in light of the way they've shown contempt for us at almost every opportunity along the Brexit process. The UK and the EU ideology just don't go together because we have never agreed as a United Kingdom to being part of a Federal republic which is what the end game is. European legislation has contained some good points (employment protection and environmental protection amongst them) but it has also produced some shockers and compelled all member countries to adopt those whether they agree with it or not. They do not have any moral high ground to stand upon. A far cry from the Common Market which was a laudable project. Long live Europe, but the EU is now a failing project and to be part of some of the lunacy that they are proposing, whilst having (now) zero say in any of it if May gets her way and persuades Parliament to agree her labour/Tory lash-up will be disastrous for the UK.
My main concern now is that Parliament may just accede to this, based on the number of lets downs and downright betrayals we've seen this past number of months. I sincerely hope they don't and that the EU elections go ahead. Our votes are meaningless as far as any MEPs taking up their seats because if the deal is rejected, we go out anyway. As said, the point is that it will be a wake up call for the treacherous tory/labour/lib Dem parties. The vote is likely to drop a bombshell into their collective egos. The Green Party are not fit to take office so I just discount them anyway. Just because some of their manifesto is environmentally sensitive cannot cover up the fact that their views on UK security and the total lack of any substance in any almost other area renders them unfit to govern. Their own track record speaks for itself.
As for those who think Farage is a turncoat, look at where UKIP were going and where they've now arrived. I certainly wouldn't waste a vote on them now, even though I did a few years back. Farage has said all along that his "job" is getting Brexit delivered and not landing a job as PM because he doesn't want that. Shame that no-one else seems up to the task presently (either task!). That doesn't make him a turncoat...his strengths lay in rallying support for what should have happened after 17.4m people voted to leave the EU. Prior to the vote, it was made abundantly clear that leaving didn't mean a "deal" nor did it mean a customs union, it meant cutting regulatory ties and membership of the EU, which isn't the same thing as rejecting European people at all. It was a rejection of the EU project for what it has become.
Closer to home and I don't trust May at all...I just have a gut feeling that behind the scenes, we've already been stitched up. She's a stubborn person, not prone to changing her mind even when proven wrong...which has happened a lot throughout her career it seems.
My main concern now is that Parliament may just accede to this, based on the number of lets downs and downright betrayals we've seen this past number of months. I sincerely hope they don't and that the EU elections go ahead. Our votes are meaningless as far as any MEPs taking up their seats because if the deal is rejected, we go out anyway. As said, the point is that it will be a wake up call for the treacherous tory/labour/lib Dem parties. The vote is likely to drop a bombshell into their collective egos. The Green Party are not fit to take office so I just discount them anyway. Just because some of their manifesto is environmentally sensitive cannot cover up the fact that their views on UK security and the total lack of any substance in any almost other area renders them unfit to govern. Their own track record speaks for itself.
As for those who think Farage is a turncoat, look at where UKIP were going and where they've now arrived. I certainly wouldn't waste a vote on them now, even though I did a few years back. Farage has said all along that his "job" is getting Brexit delivered and not landing a job as PM because he doesn't want that. Shame that no-one else seems up to the task presently (either task!). That doesn't make him a turncoat...his strengths lay in rallying support for what should have happened after 17.4m people voted to leave the EU. Prior to the vote, it was made abundantly clear that leaving didn't mean a "deal" nor did it mean a customs union, it meant cutting regulatory ties and membership of the EU, which isn't the same thing as rejecting European people at all. It was a rejection of the EU project for what it has become.
Closer to home and I don't trust May at all...I just have a gut feeling that behind the scenes, we've already been stitched up. She's a stubborn person, not prone to changing her mind even when proven wrong...which has happened a lot throughout her career it seems.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
Hey, be fair here. The Lib Dems have always been pro-EU, campaigned for Remain, have openly said they're against Brexit from the start, and are now campaigning with the attached leaflet. You may disagree, but you can't accuse them of dodging the issue and messing about like the Tories and Labour. Much as it pains me to type "give Farage his due", he's been equally reliable in what he's trying to achieve. So for those who say "they're all the same", you at least have a couple.of pretty damned clear boxes on the voting slip this time.
Hey Jimmy, she declared herself anti hunting so go carefully my friend .
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I met Ann Widdecombe at the Eurostar Terminal at Waterloo. And whilst she seemed pleasant enough I wouldn't vote for her.
My mother, married at twenty-one and a War Widow at twenty-three was quite blunt and to the point.
She queried what life experience could someone, a sexagenarian virgin, have that had "never ever had even as much as a scuffle in a hen house?"
My mother, married at twenty-one and a War Widow at twenty-three was quite blunt and to the point.
She queried what life experience could someone, a sexagenarian virgin, have that had "never ever had even as much as a scuffle in a hen house?"
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dartmoordog
Well-Known Member
As much a Brexiteer as I am, I could never put a X in the Widdecombe box for that very reason................In fact I wouldn’t put anything in her box tbh.
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
Hey, be fair here. The Lib Dems have always been pro-EU, campaigned for Remain, have openly said they're against Brexit from the start, and are now campaigning with the attached leaflet. You may disagree, but you can't accuse them of dodging the issue and messing about like the Tories and Labour. Much as it pains me to type "give Farage his due", he's been equally reliable in what he's trying to achieve. So for those who say "they're all the same", you at least have a couple.of pretty damned clear boxes on the voting slip this time.
Fair comment but my view of them is still that they're bottom drawer....Cable just yesterday trying to justify the language used on their latest placard and missing the point completely that it doesn't say much about his dignity nor the respect for the dignity of the youngsters he might be exposing to his crass language. He's yet another classic example of a politician with contempt for the electorate.
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
This may well be so, but, for the MEP elections & giving the other parties a kicking, .. does it matter?
We’re hopefully not going to be part of the EU much longer & It’s not as if she’s going to be taking a seat in the Commons.
It would only matter in a General Election or by election.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Well i am not voting for conservatives or labour as they both are pro-brexit. I wont vote SNP so that leaves the Lib-dem who are pro remain.
I may be in the minority, but i think our interests are better aligned to being a reforming part of Europe and part of a much bigger group and market than being left out on our own.
I dont see other countries queuing up to do business with us given the way we treat foreigners at our borders.
I may be in the minority, but i think our interests are better aligned to being a reforming part of Europe and part of a much bigger group and market than being left out on our own.
I dont see other countries queuing up to do business with us given the way we treat foreigners at our borders.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
The Germans will be desperate to do business with us, we are one of their more significant export markets. Furthermore, just how are all those German workers going to afford to pay the extra taxes that they will have to make up for the shortfall in EU funding when we leave, especially if their working hours are cut if UK markets are no longer open to them?
Hornet 6
Well-Known Member
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Not sure I agree with this. German businesses export all over the world and will continue to do business with the UK on World Trade basis (if no deal). But we wont get any special concessions from them.
Why do you think many many British businesses have set up European operations, staffed by Europeans and located within Europe to service European market. London office market has crashed as everybody has gone. All medical research has gone as the European Medicine Agency which was in London is now in Amsterdam - why spend £m on clinical trials in UK when for the same spend you get licenced for whole of Europe.
All the Supply chain businesses for Jaguar Landrover are moving to Europe thanks to new plant in Slovakia. I could go on, but Brexit means Brexit meansBrexit .......
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
Well I don't know about you, but I don't just vote to further my own interests. And even if the UK leaves, it's still my continent, which I remain a citizen of. And it IS going to matter here because the way things are going, the UK is going to continue following and taking most of the rules.
Hornet 6
Well-Known Member
That unfortunately is probably true, the damage has been done, and done to us by our so called government, who couldn't organise an escape from a wet paper bag.
Neil.
Lets get it right Jag/LR plan there policy a minimum of five years in advance, and the same happens with most Major companies so Brexit was not in vogue when they planned to move to Slovakia (funded by EU grants and labour being much cheaper). You could indeed go on but it would be to no avail as businesses generally work to maximise profits wherever they do it from and former Eastern block countries are still ripe to operate out of.
Sometimes with all the "We are doomed" merchants on here I think a few shares in Dignitas might be a good investment.
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