Why is no one talking numbers?

[big ears]

The big issue here and this thread proves it is US as a mechanism to control deer.

There is money in deer control, maybe to some not a lot, but to some it provides an income. To manage that income there needs to be deer to shoot. Reducing the deer population dramatically to some may be something they do not want to do as it’s cutting them off at the knees.

I guess that is what the thread OP is about.

I’ve thought for some time the only way is to enforce cull numbers on land that is over populated. This will need support from NE to firstly issue the cull numbers and also assist with the removal/disposal of the carcasses. Probably at cost and no more.

This will stop the buying of land to produce “green spaces” but also force the issue of many controlling deer over large areas of land badly and inefficiently. It could be the death knell for many small stalking outfits that offer paid stalks but will also make the larger outfits kill deer to control numbers not to produce trophies.

For this to work all of us need to sign up and stop being protectionist about “our bit”. Organisations like BASC and BDS need to support small stalking outfits and stop their ever present push to collectives like the DI. Many will know the hated I have of the DI who pushed small time effective stalkers out if permissions for their own benefit only to not control the deer well because they had taken on too much. Many in this site are ex DI and will be reading this now to them I say “you are a cause of this problem NOT a solution”. I’m trying to get a group down here to work together looking into TB and the ever present behaviour of ex DI members are a cause to stop this happening.

We need to accept there are too many deer, we need to cull three times what we are doing at present to stand still. What I think is needed is a government issued tag system which is issued based in your permissions and centrally agreed numbers. Failure to meet these tags means that your deer control will be offered to other stalkers in your area the next year. Central government will give NE powers to enforce this and stop landowners refusing access. This will continue until the deer population is under control.
Draconian yes but it will sort out the deer.

 

[Poh]

This isn't a simple problem to solve

You've guides and recreational stalkers have too much ground to do a good job, wanting good trophy's and not culling enough.

You've landowners who like seeing them.

And a lack of insensitive to kill large numbers due to low value of the meat!

My first point 2 points aren't easy to solve

My 3rd point could be solved by getting the meat into schools and other places. I also think we need to open the season up on females not males deer you'll kill more killing 1 pregnant female than 1 male

"Get the meat into schools and other places" is a great idea. Biggest problem is that the carcasses need to be competently inspected for disease. Have you seen the opposition to mandatory training on this site (dons tin hat and takes cover)? Who is going to do those inspections when you have incompetent (untrained) stalkers shooting the deer? Maybe the answer is government run processing centres, where stalkers can drop off their recently(?) killed carcasses, like that will ever happen.

 

[Mike1979]

"Get the meat into schools and other places" is a great idea. Biggest problem is that the carcasses need to be competently inspected for disease. Have you seen the opposition to mandatory training on this site (dons tin hat and takes cover)? Who is going to do those inspections when you have incompetent (untrained) stalkers shooting the deer? Maybe the answer is government run processing centres, where stalkers can drop off their recently(?) killed carcasses, like that will ever happen.

How dare you .... we will all get PDS 42 and be able to control the deer with our single shot creedmoors (unless on Irish Sika) then inspect them perfectly whilst marveling in our own self importance

I have spoken to a couple of game dealers who were shocked at what people think is a well presented carcass ....

 

[nf-fuse]

The only way the government is going to reduce deer numbers of they set decided to increase deer numbers.

 

[VSS]

I have spoken to a couple of game dealers who were shocked at what people think is a well presented carcass ....

The standard of carcass presentation is indeed a problem. Game dealer prices aren't ever going to rise until stalkers up their game in this respect.

 

[big ears]

I have spoken to a couple of game dealers who were shocked at what people think is a well presented carcass ....

You are 100% right. But then how many Game dealers feed that back and tell them they won’t accept it?

 

[VSS]

You are 100% right. But then how many Game dealers feed that back and tell them they won’t accept it?

I think it's high time game dealers started turning away anything they dont really want.
If they were to stop accepting the rubbish then they might be more inclined to pay proper money for the good stuff.

 

[HonestJohn]

I think it's high time game dealers started turning away anything they dont really want.
If they were to stop accepting the rubbish then they might be more inclined to pay proper money for the good stuff.

I’m not convinced.
Yes, some are coming in poor, but when the best are achieving £0.80 to £1.00, and dealers are creative accounting to downgrade carcass quality for their gain, taking 2-3 months to pay, etc, it’s still not going to make stalkers really bother.

It takes two to tango

 

[big ears]

I think it's high time game dealers started turning away anything they dont really want.
If they were to stop accepting the rubbish then they might be more inclined to pay proper money for the good stuff.

100%

 

[big ears]

I’m not convinced.
Yes, some are coming in poor, but when the best are achieving £0.80 to £1.00, and dealers are creative accounting to downgrade carcass quality for their gain, taking 2-3 months to pay, etc, it’s still not going to make stalkers really bother.

It takes two to tango

Disagree. As my mother were to say, “two wrongs don’t make a right”
It’s a buyers market, we as stalkers should behave professionally and want our carcasses to be the best. Blaming poor money for poor hygiene is not acceptable

 

[HonestJohn]

Disagree. As my mother were to say, “two wrongs don’t make a right”
It’s a buyers market, we as stalkers should behave professionally and want our carcasses to be the best. Blaming poor money for poor hygiene is not acceptable

That’s not what I’m referring to in terms of carcass quality, I’m referring to the quantity of deer stalkers bother to shoot and sell.
I agree one should go to the n’th degree to present a carcass as best as possible

 

[big ears]

That’s not what I’m referring to in terms of carcass quality, I’m referring to the quantity of deer stalkers bother to shoot and sell.
I agree one should go to the n’th degree to present a carcass as best as possible

Ok sorry got wrong end of stick.
Agree there comes a tipping point when it’s worth spending hours pulling deer back to the car. That does have a value.

 

[Chris Richardson]

"Get the meat into schools and other places" is a great idea. Biggest problem is that the carcasses need to be competently inspected for disease. Have you seen the opposition to mandatory training on this site (dons tin hat and takes cover)? Who is going to do those inspections when you have incompetent (untrained) stalkers shooting the deer? Maybe the answer is government run processing centres, where stalkers can drop off their recently(?) killed carcasses, like that will ever happen.

Incompetent doesn’t mean untrained trust me I’ve seen plenty of trained stalkers I wouldn’t trust to gut a rabbit

 

[valevelo]

I’m not convinced.
Yes, some are coming in poor, but when the best are achieving £0.80 to £1.00, and dealers are creative accounting to downgrade carcass quality for their gain, taking 2-3 months to pay, etc, it’s still not going to make stalkers really bother.

It takes two to tango

I have no iron in the fire, reading this as a new FAC grant with an interest in getting into stalking but no experience.

Sounds like game dealers are just like lamb buyers though. They'll always find some reason to hold the price if they can. "we only want white faced lambs", "abbatoir has switched to new season lamb", " no flavor in these milk fat lambs, need hoggets", "grassfed lambs aren't killing out well", "fed lambs don't taste the same as grassfed" and so on.

 

[slider]

I have no iron in the fire, reading this as a new FAC grant with an interest in getting into stalking but no experience.

Sounds like game dealers are just like lamb buyers though. They'll always find some reason to hold the price if they can. "we only want white faced lambs", "abbatoir has switched to new season lamb", " no flavor in these milk fat lambs, need hoggets", "grassfed lambs aren't killing out well", "fed lambs don't taste the same as grassfed" and so on.

Yup

 

[crimson]

At last, somebody who sees it for actually what it is, best post on this thread yet

Agree. So it’s not an incentive. The reason I mentioned it is there NEEDS to be an incentive so maybe NE should subsidise?

It's very unlikely that NE will fund a subsidy but they will probably demand that deer are culled in areas of over-population as is the case up here (Scotland). If the Landowner doesn't comply Nature Scot can intervene and appoint Contractors to carry out the cull (at Landowners expense).

 

[nf-fuse]

It's very unlikely that NE will fund a subsidy but they will probably demand that deer are culled in areas of over-population as is the case up here (Scotland). If the Landowner doesn't comply Nature Scot can intervene and appoint Contractors to carry out the cull (at Landowners expense).

How much does that actually happen?

 

[slider]

How much does that actually happen?

Very very rarely

 

[big ears]

Very very rarely

So not much of an incentive. This is the issue.

 

[paul k]

This is an interesting dilemma. I think that much of the general public would be staggered to know that around 750,000 deer are already culled annually but obviously, as most stalking takes place at “antisocial” times of day or in sparsely populated areas, they don’t get a lot of opportunity to see deer stalking happening. I think that the Covid lockdowns were a big factor as the level of culling was much reduced. I don’t know the actual numbers but if one assumes that the cull was at least 50% down for two years, that would have increased the general population by around 200,000 giving a bit of a mountain to climb in culling enough to even get back to the starting point. Clearly, more female deer need to be culled to reduce rather than maintain populations and for estates that rely on the income from selling trophy males this becomes an issue. I think it right that male deer close season being set aside is right no matter how distasteful it is or how difficult managing for quality becomes.

There are a number of things that will affect how successful we are at increasing the cull by enough to make a difference.

1. We don’t have the venison eating culture prevalent in much of the rest of Europe and this will present difficulties in processing all of the harvested deer into the food supply and over supply will depress prices at the game dealers.
2. The current attitude of police to firearms is going to depress the number of active stalkers at a time when more are needed.
3. Some of the general public find it difficult to accept that the cute deer “Bambi syndrome” need to be culled at all and in this age of seemingly increasing direct action there is the possibility that some current stalkers, particularly the “non professional”, may be intimidated and consequently deterred from stalking.
4. Some landowners have the same attitude and will not allow their deer to be culled. This and limitations on where it is safe to stalk will ensure that there are always sanctuaries or reservoirs of unmanaged deer from which adjacent managed land will be restocked. I used to stalk muntjac over about 2,000 acres of the Chilterns and early morning joggers and dog walkers straying off the foothpaths effectively limited us to 800 acres and we still had to be super careful when taking shots and had many stalks disrupted.
5. The “right to roam” in Scotland makes stalking liable to disruption which is particularly bad in the short winter days when it is difficult enough to get enough daylight to achieve the required cull without having to restart a disrupted stalk.
6. When deer of many species are still increasing their geographical range it can be a while before they get managed due to the process of getting permissions and police clearance sorted out. However, we are starting to run out of “new” and as yet unpopulated areas in the country with roe in particular just about everywhere, albeit in widely differing densities.
7. Densities differ anyway and there will be some areas with high numbers and multiple species that even well managed ground will still have too many deer.

I’d love to be able to finish with a solution but I’m afraid that I don’t have the answers!