Why Use Multi BC's when modelling trajectories of highly efficient Lead Free Bullets

I am happy that the resulting multi Bc solutions work very well over the relevant velocity ranges.
It is just that if you use the appropriate standard projectile shape then you will make calculation a lot easier. The BC will be valid for all the velocity range.

I should add that the BC depends on the standard projectile shape, not what it is made of. A standard projectile of any shape has a diameter of one inch and a weight of one pound by definition.
 
It is just that if you use the appropriate standard projectile shape then you will make calculation a lot easier. The BC will be valid for all the velocity range.

I should add that the BC depends on the standard projectile shape, not what it is made of. A standard projectile of any shape has a diameter of one inch and a weight of one pound by definition.
Happy to discuss this at some point, this thread is probably not the place. I agree that you can find a pretty accurate G7 for any of my TLR bullets for a given muzzle velocity but do not agree that you can find one that will work at all
muzzle velocities. You have additional factors in my TLR’s, not least the relief grooves in the bearing surface which create additional
Issues from a drag perspective over and above what’s happening with a smooth bearing surface bullet.
If you have the time the data I printed above is very accurate and at two varying muzzle velocities so you’re very welcome to try and I’d be very happy if you succeed.
I’ll have a play around with some numbers and compare to the real world figures too.
 
This is fascinating and points out the fact that BC changes every moment as speed changes. Doplar radar can track this but I’m reality gives you more data points than you can use.
Totally agree and it bears out the point I made initially albeit done with a significantly higher degree of tech etc.😳 Clearly what I’m after is a solution that people can use within the designed operating velocities of the bullet subject to the equipment I have. Given the distances you shoot I think you can corroborate that my solution works well 😁
 
Totally agree and it bears out the point I made initially albeit done with a significantly higher degree of tech etc.😳 Clearly what I’m after is a solution that people can use within the designed operating velocities of the bullet subject to the equipment I have. Given the distances you shoot I think you can corroborate that my solution works well 😁
Indeed it’s perfect for me :)
 
Happy to discuss this at some point, this thread is probably not the place. I agree that you can find a pretty accurate G7 for any of my TLR bullets for a given muzzle velocity but do not agree that you can find one that will work at all
muzzle velocities. You have additional factors in my TLR’s, not least the relief grooves in the bearing surface which create additional
Issues from a drag perspective over and above what’s happening with a smooth bearing surface bullet.
If you have the time the data I printed above is very accurate and at two varying muzzle velocities so you’re very welcome to try and I’d be very happy if you succeed.
I’ll have a play around with some numbers and compare to the real world figures too.

I do think that your TLRs look more like a G7 profile than a G1. Maybe not quite G7, but closer. Perhaps you could re-run your measurement data to see if a closer fit is achieved.G1 & G7 Ballistic Coefficients... What's the Difference?

Common solvers only take either G1 or G7 numbers. Like it or not, a single number is what they use, and many do so. I'd suggest that a usable single number (accepting that the whole BC thing alters with muzzle velocity, and then downrange) could be a useful thing to determine and publish.

E.g., for MV in such and such a range, use G? BC value y. Out to distance X.

Then it is down to the user to determine drops, and more, for themselves. At least having a starting point.

Strelok, AFAIK, uses standard ballistic curves, if field measurements do not match predictions then the input BC can be altered to make predictions match measurements. Over a part of the curve-fit.
 
I do think that your TLRs look more like a G7 profile than a G1. Maybe not quite G7, but closer. Perhaps you could re-run your measurement data to see if a closer fit is achieved.G1 & G7 Ballistic Coefficients... What's the Difference?

Common solvers only take either G1 or G7 numbers. Like it or not, a single number is what they use, and many do so. I'd suggest that a usable single number (accepting that the whole BC thing alters with muzzle velocity, and then downrange) could be a useful thing to determine and publish.

E.g., for MV in such and such a range, use G? BC value y. Out to distance X.

Then it is down to the user to determine drops, and more, for themselves. At least having a starting point.

Strelok, AFAIK, uses standard ballistic curves, if field measurements do not match predictions then the input BC can be altered to make predictions match measurements. Over a part of the curve-fit.
StrelokPro allows multiple bc input which is better right?
 
I don’t to be honest as there’s no real point. They’re nowhere near as efficient as the TLR’s and provided the Mv they’re going out at is halfway sensible they follow the the 2 minute rule like pretty much every other bullet. Ie from a 100 yard zero a minute to 200 a further minute to 250. If you’re shooting passed that at quarry on a regular basis perhaps the TLR is a better option.
Great pun on the first line.
Ken.
 
Wouldn't it be great if all projectile manufacturers published multiple BC values? Over the last ten or so years I've used, and use, three ballistic calculators: Shooter, Applied Ballistics and recently Strelok. All have given me data for first-round hits on steel gongs out to 800m with a .260 Rem (with no wind or a good wind call on my part).

Shooter is a bit dated nowadays but does provide for inputting multiple BC's. Sierra provide multiple, or banded, BC's that are included in Shooter's projectile database or can be input manually. AB utilises custom drag curves for a lot of projectiles but does not provide for multiples. Bryan Litz does list multiple BC's, both G1 and G7, in his books on Long Range Shooting. I only have the first edition of the book where the list of projectiles is somewhat limited.

Strelok has many Sierra projectiles in its database and also allows for manual multiple BC input. It also handles Lapua drag curves.

I like using ballistic apps. I strive to input the best info available for the projectiles I use (and the environment) and I verify the results in the field. But again, as I mentioned above, I have achieved first-round hits out to 800m (At the range. When after critters I max out at 250 - 300m).

A caveat is that, as I understand it, the trajectory truing functions in most apps do not work with multiple BC's.

Will all manufacturers provide multiple BC's or even custom drag functions that will be made available to app developers? I wonder.

Cheers
 
StrelokPro allows multiple bc input which is better right?
I think it might be. However I have only skimmed the surface of Strelok, so no real idea how it works. I am guessing that it pieces together a trajectory from a number of sections, each using a BC appropriate to the velocity range for each section. Would that be correct ?

I do most of my theorising, at home, not in the field, using a standard calculator, this one: ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator a straightforward thing which can only accept either G1 or G7 BCs. There are many more G(x) models as well, maybe some of which might closer match a G(Yew Tree) bullet, but finding a calculator, or even a solver that knows these is I think outwith the realm of straightforward usage.

I do have some basic environmental measurement equipment, i.e. a Casio wristwatch for barometric pressure and temperature, as well as a windwatch more designed for nautical use. No humidity device. But, for UK conditions, no particular extremes of e.g. altitude or temperature, I think it is good enough, since I already have these. I do have a good but old set of LRF binoculars with a crude internal ballistics calculator which is surprisingly useful at hunting distances and much further. The calculator gives up predicting beyond 500m, but they range reliably to exactly one mile,1760 yards not a yard further (something to do with ITAR restriction at the time I bought them)

I am thinking of tinkering with the Hornady 4DOF app. to see how that works. Having read the White Paper about the theory (a deep read). Who knows, there might be a characterised bullet in their database already that is not dissimilar to a tipped Yew Tree. Might be interesting, but I have no pressing interest, or time, to try it out. It is "free" (at the moment).

https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/ballistic/hornady-4dof-technical-paper-v2.pdf

4DOF App - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

They have "baked it in" to a Kestrel, in competition I suppose with Applied Ballistics, who own that space.

I am not clear about how wind drift measurements have been determined. It must be pretty difficult to be sure of the actual wind speed and direction along the bullet track, but perhaps measurements near the firing point are good enough ? Obviously having the electronic target is useful to see where the bullets are striking, at least in a relative manner unless a target face has been fitted and aligned. Both vertical and horizontal. If I have understood correctly the use of G1 wind drift predictions for these bullets closely matches the actual measurements of wind drift on the target, validating this method. And that the bullet has a BC matching closer to G1 than G7.

It is good that Yew Tree are testing and making available BCs, which seem to be absent from some others' information.
Measure the dimensions of the bullet and determine your own drag function. Then press the 'ballistics' button and the program will go on to give you a drop chart based on the computed drag curve, not any ballistic coefficient....
This is fascinating. I must look up McDrag. Cut my teeth on Fortran BTW, mum taught it at the Computing Lab. at uni, along with other languages such as Algol-W and Ada so I was doing simple stuff even before I got my O-levels. Compiled stuff, not interpreted things like BASIC.

I am curious to know how you compute the drag curve, is that also part of the McDrag algorithms, or something more proprietary ? As you say, "The logical extension is to use McDrag as the front end of a complete external ballistics program, using the calculated drag curve to generate ballistic tables rather than use the usual Ballistic Coefficient with reference to a standard projectile as the starting point. This is what has been done here."
 
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Wind movement of the bullet is a function of lag time (basically the difference between time of flight to target in a vacuum and time of flight in the relevant atmospheric conditions) which in turn is a function of the ballistic performance of the bullet and is therefore calculated using the bullet’s BC/multi bc. As with everything else the resolved solution will only be as good as the input information is.
 
I am curious to know how you compute the drag curve, is that also part of the McDrag algorithms, or something more proprietary ?
Just used Bob McCoy's algorithms, which are cited. All I did was provide a convenient shell in which you can input data and get results as an output.
 
Following @borbal 's encouragement to run my data through his ballistics program here are the results
I input all the bullet measurement data for my 6.5mm 114 TLR bullet into the program. Results as follows:
It gave G1 and G7 BC's as follows

Velocity G1 G7

Mach 3 0.62 0.29
Mach 2.5 0.56 0.28
Mach 2 0.53 0.26
Mach 1.5 0.49 0.26

I then printed off the ballistics tables at Mv's of 2,920 fps and 3,240 fps and compared them to my G1 multi BC solution

Here are the results

MV 2,920 fps
Multi BC KolbeDifference
Distance (yards)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)
0
10000.400.400
2001.30.91.310-0.1
3003.31.53.41.6-0.1-0.1
4005.72.25.82.2-0.10
5008.638.62.900.1


MV 3,240 fps

Multi BCKolbeDifference
Distance (yards)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)Elevation (MOA)Wind (MOA)
0
10000.400.530-0.13
2000.90.70.90.80-0.1
3002.41.12.51.3-0.1-0.2
4004.21.54.41.8-0.2-0.3
5006.21.96.52.3-0.3-0.4
6008.52.58.92.9-0.4-0.4
700113.211.53.6-0.5-0.4


I have to say the ballistics table for the 2,920 fps MV is amazingly good and to be fair the 3,240fps table is pretty good too. It does show the G7 BC solution underestimating the real performance of the bullet at the higher MV just not as badly as the single G1 BC solution which is to be expected and I think it is this primarily that that contributes to the errors as ToF and distance increase.
In my view it is sensible to conclude the bullets are more efficient than the program/G7 predicts at 3,000 fps plus as is corroborated by my own testing which gives a G1 BC of 0.71 at 2,950 fps plus (rather than the 0.62 of the program prediction).
I am planning to get out to 1,000 yards at some point so once I have the data for that I will run another comparison.
 
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