Poll

[EccentricJackal]

There are four months during which a sizeable chunk of the electorate may actually bring themselves up to speed on this

I think this is overly optimistic, most people I've spoken to about this either have already made a decision based on sound-bites and single issues, or simply don't care enough to look it up.

There was a poll in the Evening Standard yesterday showing that neither the "stayers" or the "leavers" trusted Cameron and our politicians, or other EU politicians. That could be worrying because trust is really what democracy is based on. Or alternately, as Brian said to the crowd, "You don't need to follow anybody, you've got to think for yourselves!".

I can't really see any reason to have any trust left in our politicians, but equally, I don't think this distrust will actually amount to anything that affects politicians other than a general apathy from voters on election day.

Yes! We're all individual!

Ryan

 

[EccentricJackal]

For all its' weaknesses, this continent is under the rule of law. And you can go across it unmolested, anywhere you like. We take all of that for granted. It's really boring, and no less remarkable for all that. That has to be worth preserving, no?

I can't see any arguing with that if the EU seemed content to halt as it is, but I share some of CH's concerns that the natural progression would ultimately be to a 'United States of Europe'. I'm still not sure how I feel about this in general, but I think I would potentially value independence and individuality over the potential safety of unity...

Ryan

 

[Cloudhopper]

The other day, someone asked over lunch (not H!) "what is the European Dream? I mean the Americans were quite good at selling the American Dream back before they lost the plot, but no-one seems to be able to explain the European version". I thought about this, and it seems to me that in a way, we're living the European Dream now. We live in a continent which for the first time ever has been at peace for a generation, and can reasonably have every expectation that this will continue. It's not ideal, but the standard of life is pretty high throughout, and unlike in the US, there are safeguards in place to catch you if you fall which mostly work quite well. For all its' weaknesses, this continent is under the rule of law. And you can go across it unmolested, anywhere you like. We take all of that for granted. It's really boring, and no less remarkable for all that. That has to be worth preserving, no?

Unless you fancy a visit to South East Ukraine. Not in the EU or NATO I know, but they could easily be in the near future. The Baltic States are part of the EU and at the moment they're none too happy with one of their neighbours . The risk here is high. The current situation does not predict the future.

People and countries are competitive, alway have been, always will be. There are no friends in international diplomacy.

EccentricJackal used the tag-line "leap of faith" That should be "have some faith". The UK is probably the most developed country in the world with systems that are well based and developed over many centuries. We're one of the largest economies and a nuclear power. We were trading globally long before the EU.

Hopefully the electorate will realise this and vote appropriately.
CH

 

[Pine Marten]

Don't know if you've noticed, but the "IN" vote is creeping up...

 

[caorach]

I can't really see any reason to have any trust left in our politicians, but equally, I don't think this distrust will actually amount to anything that affects politicians other than a general apathy from voters on election day.

I think that our dislike for politicians and their lackys and "ban it" culture is actually at the very root of how many people will vote on election day - the EU must be about the biggest employer of politicians and their associated "hangers-on" and it also offers a great employment scheme for washed up political figures (look at the Kinnoch family for example, or how Tony Blair believed he was going to move from hated PM to Queen of Europe on his departure) so an out vote is also a vote to greatly reduce the number of these people that your tax money pays for. For example the European Commission employs 33,000 people and there are about 55,000 civil servants employed by the EU, clearly this is only a proportion of the full figure.

So, I think out dislike of sponging politicians and their lackys and for having to pay for sponging politicians and their lackys who might never even have set foot in our country will be in the minds of many people when they vote. I suspect that this is also why so many of our political figures want us to remain in - it is a job creation scheme for politicians and bureaucrats and voting out would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[waterford103]

Don't know if you've noticed, but the "IN" vote is creeping up...

Still massively outnumbered and Joe public is a little slower at catching on , the outs will have it , I live in hope of a freer Britain and leave that turgid ,corrupt socialist mess behind.

 

[Cloudhopper]

Don't know if you've noticed, but the "IN" vote is creeping up...

I did notice, please don't blame it on me!

 

[EccentricJackal]

EccentricJackal used the tag-line "leap of faith" That should be "have some faith". The UK is probably the most developed country in the world with systems that are well based and developed over many centuries. We're one of the largest economies and a nuclear power. We were trading globally long before the EU.
CH

I'll stick with 'leap of faith'; the effects of an Out vote will still be administered by our current, pro-EU, government, and all the potential in the world won't help if it is completely mis-managed, either intentionally or through incompetence. Our government's deliberate refusal to not put any plans in place for an Out vote is what makes it a leap of faith, not a lack of faith in our potential as an independent nation.

So, I think out dislike of sponging politicians and their lackys and for having to pay for sponging politicians and their lackys who might never even have set foot in our country will be in the minds of many people when they vote. I suspect that this is also why so many of our political figures want us to remain in - it is a job creation scheme for politicians and bureaucrats and voting out would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

It's certainly something affecting my decision, but it is sad that the potential future of the EU may be decided, at least partly, on it having too much bureaucracy.

Ryan

 

[JTO]

The other day, someone asked over lunch (not H!) "what is the European Dream? I mean the Americans were quite good at selling the American Dream back before they lost the plot, but no-one seems to be able to explain the European version". I thought about this, and it seems to me that in a way, we're living the European Dream now.

You mean the creeping paralysis of Socialism, following it's outrider, Political Correctness.

 

[Cloudhopper]

I'll stick with 'leap of faith'; the effects of an Out vote will still be administered by our current, pro-EU, government, and all the potential in the world won't help if it is completely mis-managed, either intentionally or through incompetence. Our government's deliberate refusal to not put any plans in place for an Out vote is what makes it a leap of faith, not a lack of faith in our potential as an independent nation.QUOTE]

Ryan, that's a very good point and I get it. I'm sure there will be a term of confusion and adjustment for government and governing bodies (like the CAA for instance), however to my mind this is relatively trivial when compared to the long-term good of the country.
CH

 

[JockStalk]

My only problem with voting no is the reaction from our local numpties

 

[sauer]

Bwian?
He's not the messiah , he's a very naughty boy!

Welwease woger!

 

[ILoveBambi]

Out

 

[scubadog]

The other day, someone asked over lunch (not H!) "what is the European Dream? I mean the Americans were quite good at selling the American Dream back before they lost the plot, but no-one seems to be able to explain the European version". I thought about this, and it seems to me that in a way, we're living the European Dream now. We live in a continent which for the first time ever has been at peace for a generation, and can reasonably have every expectation that this will continue. It's not ideal, but the standard of life is pretty high throughout, and unlike in the US, there are safeguards in place to catch you if you fall which mostly work quite well. For all its' weaknesses, this continent is under the rule of law. And you can go across it unmolested, anywhere you like. We take all of that for granted. It's really boring, and no less remarkable for all that. That has to be worth preserving, no?

Hang on......been PLENTY of wars in Europe in the last generation!

Bosnia/croatia
iraq
syria
turkwy
cypres
Chechen


just to name a few! In fCt, the amount of wars actually increased since the star of the Free trade agreement!

 

[scubadog]

The other day, someone asked over lunch (not H!) "what is the European Dream? I mean the Americans were quite good at selling the American Dream back before they lost the plot, but no-one seems to be able to explain the European version". I thought about this, and it seems to me that in a way, we're living the European Dream now. We live in a continent which for the first time ever has been at peace for a generation, and can reasonably have every expectation that this will continue. It's not ideal, but the standard of life is pretty high throughout, and unlike in the US, there are safeguards in place to catch you if you fall which mostly work quite well. For all its' weaknesses, this continent is under the rule of law. And you can go across it unmolested, anywhere you like. We take all of that for granted. It's really boring, and no less remarkable for all that. That has to be worth preserving, no?

well...personally the fact I can travel without a visa doesn't bother me at all!
that no real benefit,....but it brings plenty of problems!

 

[Pine Marten]

Hang on......been PLENTY of wars in Europe in the last generation!

Bosnia/croatia
iraq
syria
turkwy
cypres
Chechen


just to name a few! In fCt, the amount of wars actually increased since the star of the Free trade agreement!

Oh someone else deal with this one...

 

[Alantoo]

Hang on......been PLENTY of wars in Europe in the last generation!

Bosnia/croatia
iraq
syria
turkwy
cypres
Chechen


just to name a few! In fCt, the amount of wars actually increased since the star of the Free trade agreement!

And just how many exactly of those war torn countries were fellow members of the European Union?

Alan

 

[JabaliHunter]

Hang on......been PLENTY of wars in Europe in the last generation!

Bosnia/croatia
iraq
syria
turkwy
cypres
Chechen


just to name a few! In fCt, the amount of wars actually increased since the star of the Free trade agreement!

And just how many exactly of those war torn countries were fellow members of the European Union?

Alan

How many of those are even in Europe, let alone the EU...?

 

[hoodwink]

I think turkey, cypress , Bosnia Croatia. And possibly Chechnya.

 

[scubadog]

And just how many exactly of those war torn countries were fellow members of the European Union?

Alan

well...I only replied to pine martins post detailing just SOME of the wars in Europe...so unless your geography failed you (sounds like it did) the correct answer is All of them, except Iraq, Syria which have all had wars waged on them by countries in the EU!


perhaps some indies need to brush up on geography before commenting? It appears your opinion of Europe is France Germany and England......just about sums up indies for me!