Sums it up! +1
Tipping
- Thread starter tusker
- Start date
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Must admit i've never treated myself to a day at the stags, someday mibee.
And if u are losing sleep and getting stressed over tips u really can't have much to worry about in life.
If u can afford a day at the stags u can afford to give a tip, if u can't stay out the pub for 1 wknd, or put stalking of a few weeks/next season and u can, in the grand scheme of things is not a massive ammount
I don't earn massive wages so don't tip as high as some have mentioned and usually only shoot smaller game days so smalish tips anyway, but there has been a couple of times when shooting at a Field Trial where i have been the only gun that has gave a tip and keeper was quite surprised (dunno if the done thing?)
If that was a normal dog training shoot i'd have gave a tip so wil still give a tip as its a FT even if no one else does, and to be honest not overly bothered if the other guns don't tip. Keepers probably deserve a far bigger tip after having dog training things on as usually like trying to herd cats at times.
Locally down here there is a couple of well known 'toff's' (used very losely) who's standard tip is a £5 no matter wot, bearing in mind these are invite only shoots there getting for free usually 150-400 bird days, none of them run there own shoot either so not as if inviting folk back to their shoot.
Getting invited to a day worth hundreds or even thousands of pounds and u only tip a fiver is a bit insulting really, and threy've been doing it for years never seems affected by inflation
I think most keeprs understand esp with working class folk that money can be tight and would probably prefer them to be nice polite and courtous and good craic throu the day, smilling all day loing and really enjoying it rather than an ungrateful pain in the arse all day but gives a decent tip (althou u'll probably find the pita's don't tip either).
Also if u really find it hard to part with ur hard earned cash (which i do normally) have a quick think about wot ur wearing and holding.
Chances are u could be in £200 wellies or boots, trousers/breeks 100's, jacket 100's, rifle easily 100's if not thousands, same for scope and bins. So really not hard to be standing with 2-3K (some flash setups could be 4-5K) of kit about u for something u do a handful of times a year and u grudge giving the stalker the price of a takeaway pizza for the day.
And thats not even mentioning the fancy 4x4 u drive up in which has probably never needed to be in 4wd (most fc rangers and boys i know who are cutters/harvester/forwarder operators and doloper digger drivers all use crappy 2wd vans and they are up forset tracks 5days a week 12months a year)
Tipping is a funny thing as most would tip more for bucks/stags than a doe/hind when both could require the same effort to grass 1 and chances are does will be harder and in worse weather.
Same with keepers/game shooting, most keepers can put a decent driven day on in there sleep its the smaller days are actually harder esp some of the dog training ones, seen/been on a few where the kepers are quietly pullling their hair out with the handlers and they usually just stick a fiver in. Just haven't got a clue, would often be easier to herd cats than spaniel handlers
And if u are losing sleep and getting stressed over tips u really can't have much to worry about in life.
If u can afford a day at the stags u can afford to give a tip, if u can't stay out the pub for 1 wknd, or put stalking of a few weeks/next season and u can, in the grand scheme of things is not a massive ammount
I don't earn massive wages so don't tip as high as some have mentioned and usually only shoot smaller game days so smalish tips anyway, but there has been a couple of times when shooting at a Field Trial where i have been the only gun that has gave a tip and keeper was quite surprised (dunno if the done thing?)
If that was a normal dog training shoot i'd have gave a tip so wil still give a tip as its a FT even if no one else does, and to be honest not overly bothered if the other guns don't tip. Keepers probably deserve a far bigger tip after having dog training things on as usually like trying to herd cats at times.
Locally down here there is a couple of well known 'toff's' (used very losely) who's standard tip is a £5 no matter wot, bearing in mind these are invite only shoots there getting for free usually 150-400 bird days, none of them run there own shoot either so not as if inviting folk back to their shoot.
Getting invited to a day worth hundreds or even thousands of pounds and u only tip a fiver is a bit insulting really, and threy've been doing it for years never seems affected by inflation
I think most keeprs understand esp with working class folk that money can be tight and would probably prefer them to be nice polite and courtous and good craic throu the day, smilling all day loing and really enjoying it rather than an ungrateful pain in the arse all day but gives a decent tip (althou u'll probably find the pita's don't tip either).
Also if u really find it hard to part with ur hard earned cash (which i do normally) have a quick think about wot ur wearing and holding.
Chances are u could be in £200 wellies or boots, trousers/breeks 100's, jacket 100's, rifle easily 100's if not thousands, same for scope and bins. So really not hard to be standing with 2-3K (some flash setups could be 4-5K) of kit about u for something u do a handful of times a year and u grudge giving the stalker the price of a takeaway pizza for the day.
And thats not even mentioning the fancy 4x4 u drive up in which has probably never needed to be in 4wd (most fc rangers and boys i know who are cutters/harvester/forwarder operators and doloper digger drivers all use crappy 2wd vans and they are up forset tracks 5days a week 12months a year)
Tipping is a funny thing as most would tip more for bucks/stags than a doe/hind when both could require the same effort to grass 1 and chances are does will be harder and in worse weather.
Same with keepers/game shooting, most keepers can put a decent driven day on in there sleep its the smaller days are actually harder esp some of the dog training ones, seen/been on a few where the kepers are quietly pullling their hair out with the handlers and they usually just stick a fiver in. Just haven't got a clue, would often be easier to herd cats than spaniel handlers
Last edited:
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Pretty much agree with everything you've said here CB. It makes me wonder if some just turn up to 'do it' and don't care or appreciate what goes on behind the scenes to actually accommodate the days sport they have had.
It may not be don't care or don't appreciate...it may just be ignorance...just simple lack of knowledge. I think you are being a bit unrealistic in your expectations.
Just because I do not know what goes on behind the scenes at the computer factory, does not mean that I should not use a computer. But I could not make one...or have the first idea how to put a monetary value on the production and retailing process. I leave that to the computer company and they tell me how much money they require.
Why should you expect your clients to be able to accurately assess your business needs and pay appropriately? Why not just charge them what you know it costs? You are the only one in a position to do that accurately.
If you, as the expert professional don't state what it costs, why do you consider it is their fault when they get it wrong?
Actually I can part answer my own pontificating...I have always had to quote a fixed price up front on every thing I do. Each project is a one-off creative original site-specific piece...so difficult to assess. Even though I am the so-called expert professional I am invariably too optimistic about my production speed and underprice the job! I would probably be better off if I did ask some of my clients to set the value!
Got any tips on how to do that?
Alan
Last edited:
jamross65
Well-Known Member
It may not be don't care or don't appreciate...it may just be ignorance...just simple lack of knowledge. I think you are being a bit unrealistic in your expectations.
Just because I do not know what goes on behind the scenes at the computer factory, does not mean that I should not use a computer. But I could not make one...or have the first idea how to put a monetary value on the production and retailing process. I leave that to the computer company and they tell me how much money they require.
Why should you expect your clients to be able to accurately assess your business needs and pay appropriately? Why not just charge them what you know it costs? You are the only one in a position to do that accurately.
If you, as the expert professional don't state what it costs, why do you consider it is their fault when they get it wrong?
Actually I can part answer my own pontificating...I have always had to quote a fixed price up front on every thing I do. Each project is a one-off creative original site-specific piece...and though I am the so-called expert professional I am invariably too optimistic about my production speed and underprice the job! I would probably be better off if I did ask some of my clients to set the value!
Alan
I tried to allude to the difference earlier regarding why you cannot use other employment or contracts as an analogy.
IF you are paid for a project, you must complete that project, correct? Otherwise you wouldn't get paid.
If you book a day with a guide what is it your actually paying for? A days stalking with the hope that at the end of the day a beast is shot. You will pay in some form or in part for that day whether you shoot one or not. The contract with the guide is generally not to guarantee a beast every day you go out because that is impossible to do. You are paying for a days stalking, not a completed kit home, new garden shed, a new washing machine, your mail delivered or any other example that has been used here to argue against tipping.
What guides charge for the day out is clearly what they are happy to take as a wage for the days work. The days work is guiding a guest stalking. Not shooting an animal and in that day no doubt other factors will come into play to point to the success of the day and not necessarily success that has resulted in a beats being killed. Surely the success or enjoyment of a day stalking cannot be based on the shooting of a beast alone? If it is measured on that alone then I'd suggest those who feel like that are in the wrong game. Scenery, education, interesting conversation witnessing other wildlife and nature, humour.....the list goes on. Or alternatively a guide could say, 'walk behind me, don't say a word and shoot the animal I point at.....'. That's what some seem to think they are paying for in a contract to go stalking it appears as that is what the guide is there to do, not offer anything else as the payment is to be guided stalking......
In my opinion folk who take up a rifle or a fishing rod absolutely should educate themselves in what goes on behind the scenes to allow them to better understand the workings of the sport they are partaking in. Why wouldn't you want to broaden your knowledge of the workings of an estate, shoot or river??? It may also help them understand why a days fishing costs £200 or a red stag is £500+.
Guides are charging what they feel is a fair price for a days stalking. If by the end of the day you think you had a better day than you expected then tip the guide as a sign of appreciation because from what your saying is they could/should have charged you more in the first place. If you don't want to tip as you feel you paid for what you got, then don't! Why is it that some are so precious about NOT tipping and yet those who are in an industry where tips are common are the ones saying why lose sleep over it?????
Last edited:
tackb
Well-Known Member
i take a week hind stalking every year in the highlands and have been going to the same place for years now , my friend and I tip £50 a day each to our respective stalkers , we have an awesome time , so far I have never had a blank day because the guys work there arse off , we might shoot 2 a day or 10 a day , overall we have a great time , I get stuck in in the larder at the end of the day with them as it all helps get the jobs done quicker so we can have a dram and discuss the days fun.
now , I took my brother in law up for a stag once as a return for an invite on one of his brought driven days , he is the most staggeringly arrogant man I have ever had the misfortune to know , every bad thing he could do he did , boasted about his fitness (which was woefully lacking) boasted about his prowess with a rifle (which was woefully lacking) only wanted a royal , stated is that the best I can shoot and then promptly missed the beast , was generally a complete tool for his whole visit and highly embarrassing then come tip time I tipped for my day out (luckily I didn't miss my beast) and I assumed he'd tipped. I forgot to mention he went boozing the night before and made us late to the estate, not a great start!
about a month or two later I had a call from the agent I use (a friend) asking did I tip of course I said yes but couldn't speak for my BIL , guess what , no tip ! I was mortified , I'd seen the effort the guy had gone to to get this pleb a stag (personally I think if the stag is inside 120m and the guest misses then it's not the guides fault) so got my friend to tip the guys out his pocket and reimbursed him when I went up for the hinds, I still have wonderful sport there and learnt a lesson.
oh , and when I asked said tool if he'd tipped he said no because he'd had a blank day!
so , learn a little of what goes into putting on a days sport for a guest then ask yourself did they make a real effort ? if so tip , especially if your thinking of heading back ? it's an archaic practice but it's not over painful !
now , I took my brother in law up for a stag once as a return for an invite on one of his brought driven days , he is the most staggeringly arrogant man I have ever had the misfortune to know , every bad thing he could do he did , boasted about his fitness (which was woefully lacking) boasted about his prowess with a rifle (which was woefully lacking) only wanted a royal , stated is that the best I can shoot and then promptly missed the beast , was generally a complete tool for his whole visit and highly embarrassing then come tip time I tipped for my day out (luckily I didn't miss my beast) and I assumed he'd tipped. I forgot to mention he went boozing the night before and made us late to the estate, not a great start!
about a month or two later I had a call from the agent I use (a friend) asking did I tip of course I said yes but couldn't speak for my BIL , guess what , no tip ! I was mortified , I'd seen the effort the guy had gone to to get this pleb a stag (personally I think if the stag is inside 120m and the guest misses then it's not the guides fault) so got my friend to tip the guys out his pocket and reimbursed him when I went up for the hinds, I still have wonderful sport there and learnt a lesson.
oh , and when I asked said tool if he'd tipped he said no because he'd had a blank day!
so , learn a little of what goes into putting on a days sport for a guest then ask yourself did they make a real effort ? if so tip , especially if your thinking of heading back ? it's an archaic practice but it's not over painful !
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
So do all these pro guides that take there nice 4x4 to the garage to get serviced after they have paid the lady at reception go round the back find the guy/gal that's crawled under the thing got oil over them scraped the mud and cap off to get to check everything and say
"Here you are mate here's 20 have a drink on me ????"
"Here you are mate here's 20 have a drink on me ????"
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
The tip is a wise 'investment' in the personal nature of relationship between guest and guide. A poor, badly given or non-tip generally will not endear the guest to the guide thereafter, always assuming that the latter did his best to provide the guest with an opportunity to shoot (as opposed to 'a shot'); the poor or non-tipper often will (unknowingly) perpetuate their own misfortune on the estate or the district, whereas the man who tips well in recognition of the services rendered, irrespective of the result (which may well be influenced by his or her own shortcomings) will always be well considered, and the subsequent efforts to succeed with this guest on future occasions will always be the greater.
All for the sake sake of giving £10 more, or less than the 'going' rate!
As for an uncaring, lazy or surly guide - he is in the wrong job.
All for the sake sake of giving £10 more, or less than the 'going' rate!
As for an uncaring, lazy or surly guide - he is in the wrong job.
tikka_madras
Well-Known Member
I'm starting to wonder if I've been ballsing things up all these years. I've tipped ghillies in Scotland, keepers on driven days a plenty, but have never tipped a lowland stalker. I've just assumed that as I'm paying the price asked, that's the price wanted. It's never crossed my mind to give anything else, especially since most of them give you a price list saying "outing £x, shot fee £y, trophy fees £z" and seem to own their own businesses. I don't take much guided stalking really, I prefer to shoot on my own, but it would be good to know what the form should be...
As I type this I can imagine being added to the blacklist of all the pros on here...
As I type this I can imagine being added to the blacklist of all the pros on here...
dom8328
Well-Known Member
Ive been out twice with 2 different guides, 2 different areas and really enjoyed both outings. I am a hard working guy with a full time job and a part time job as just bought a house, I still give people the recognition for what they deserve in the way of a tip, whether that be a bottle of single malt, cash or flowers for their better half. Hopefully they enjoy what is given due to the nature of the person giving it.
Dom
Dom
tackb
Well-Known Member
has no one ever told you that you are not your brother-in-laws keeper
yes , but his behaviour could have ruined my future sport !
thankfully now I am separated from his sister and her mental health issues with the added bonus that I can have nothing to do with him!
+1. I would have thought the shot fee was the equivalent of a tip.I'm starting to wonder if I've been ballsing things up all these years. I've tipped ghillies in Scotland, keepers on driven days a plenty, but have never tipped a lowland stalker. I've just assumed that as I'm paying the price asked, that's the price wanted. It's never crossed my mind to give anything else, especially since most of them give you a price list saying "outing £x, shot fee £y, trophy fees £z" and seem to own their own businesses. I don't take much guided stalking really, I prefer to shoot on my own, but it would be good to know what the form should be...
As I type this I can imagine being added to the blacklist of all the pros on here...
paul o'
Well-Known Member
Now there is another thing "Shot Fee's" wtf ??? IF YOU HAVE PAID to go stalking then a shot will hopefully be on 
so why must I pay again to pull the trigger 
or should I say yup I can see the deer that I paid to stalk up to, So thanks for showing me them but we are done now thanks buy buy oh and there's you ££££ for the walk ??? no that's just wrong ,a stalk is a stalk and then a hope to grass a deer not there's one but don't forget that's another £50 per shot ???, is it me or am I just out of step , I fully understand if you cock up and then you pay for a scrapped deer or a dog chase . but imo one should have practiced more as its a choice or the shooter not to take the shot not be pushed into it.
small rant
so why must I pay again to pull the trigger or should I say yup I can see the deer that I paid to stalk up to, So thanks for showing me them but we are done now thanks buy buy oh and there's you ££££ for the walk ??? no that's just wrong ,a stalk is a stalk and then a hope to grass a deer not there's one but don't forget that's another £50 per shot ???, is it me or am I just out of step , I fully understand if you cock up and then you pay for a scrapped deer or a dog chase . but imo one should have practiced more as its a choice or the shooter not to take the shot not be pushed into it. small rant
I've started a thread all on its own for a shot fee discussion. But if I went on a stalk and was expected to pay a "shot fee" then I'd have serious reseevation about additionally giving a tip. In fact I wouldn't even take stalking where a shot fee was supplementary to the price of the stalk.
I hope you can see from my posts I don't have an issue either way, but I can't agree with what you use here as an analogy.
A building job is almost an objective issue. A job MUST be seen to have been done. You are paying to have a house built, no debate. No house, no payment.
A days stalking however could be considered a subjective issue. You pay for a days stalking or an outing fee. NOWHERE in the contract does it guarantee that a beast WILL be shot. And for me there lies the difference.
I know that subjective/objective isn't the best example but it's all that comes to mind just now to try and highlight the difference!
Analogies of postmen delivering letters (he has to, it's the end result of his job) and not being tipped is not relevant. There are good and bad posties, some may get the wrong address or take twice as long to deliver letters. BUT, when you get home you'll still have your mail waiting for you.
A stalker or gillie on a river is taking you out to TRY and get you a beast or a fish. NOT guarantee one. You will know yourself if you are out with a guide who is knowledgable and putting in the effort.
I understand your argument, to a point. However the point I was trying to put across is that we should all know what to expect in return for a fair days work. If the stalker/Gillie/Restaurant doesn't deliver the results then word will get round and people will simply stop using them. Say as you wouldn't hire a builder with a bad reputation
Sounds like a bribe when you describe it like that. What you'd call a "backhander" in any other industry. Buying favours.
teyhan1
Well-Known Member
Worked as a guide for nearly 20 years and seen every type of stalker from super rich ones to guys that have had to save up for an outing.
Never stopped me trying my best to get them an animal.
I never expected a tip and when they came it was just a nice bonus, so it also didn't matter how much it was.
As has been said, it is an additional gratuity.
Give what you feel is right.
The buzz I get from getting you what you want can not be bought.
Never stopped me trying my best to get them an animal.
I never expected a tip and when they came it was just a nice bonus, so it also didn't matter how much it was.
As has been said, it is an additional gratuity.
Give what you feel is right.
The buzz I get from getting you what you want can not be bought.
Similar threads
