Brexit

[Morgy]

In that unlikely scenario, I guess you try and do what you do when faced with any disaster... However the French election is turning out to be one of the most incredible political sequence of events I've ever seen. If you haven't been following it closely, then anything you thought you knew a month or even two weeks ago is back up in the air. I'm not going to be complacent about this but I'm now pretty hopeful this is going to end rather well....

It has ended well, the UK voted to leave

 

[tikka_madras]

I suspect there is a strong current of opinion that goes not a lot further than a feeling that there are "too many bloody foreigners" here. And no quantity of statistics or evidence can change that. It's a feeling, a belief, it's like trying to argue for which is the prettiest colour, it's impervious to that. I do not for a second think that everyone who voted Leave feels that way, but neither is it a negligible view.

There's plenty of truth in that. But I'd go a step further and look at what causes those feelings. Whilst I'm not a psychologist, it seems to me like social or cultural "pressure" in the form of change leads to pretty much inevitable reactions, which from my perspective always seem to run in the direction of my own prejudices (if I'm honest). The new labour years brought surges in immigration, but also much more language policing, the explosion of "hate" crime legislation creating a "them and us" feeling, human rights judgments that go against people's perceptions of natural justice, banning anything they didn't like, 4,000 new criminal offences, changes to the police that make them seem hostile to the original host culture, that horrible nanny state smug liberalism that has become the default government and public sector setting etc. That pressure can be masked in an economic boom, but when the bust comes it's all exposed.

I think the brexit vote is a vote against that. I think the surprise tory win is somewhat of a vote against that. It's not just "bloody foreigners", it's the feeling that you're increasingly a foreigner in your own country. Having said that, cultures are malleable things and it will probably all simmer down to a new normal in time.

 

[NoIDeer]

Then the democratically elected governments of Europe will have to listen to the people of Europe and back away from the Federal path they were taking.

So if the French vote for a referendum after the spring elections and then voted to leave the EU and the whole thing collapses.....what then? There wont be an EU to leave

 

[howa243]

Yes only in the case of elections, five years later you can change your mind. In this case, the people who don't want to leave the EU are stuffed on that front for at least a generation.

You could have said the same about those the referendum in 1975. Lets not forget that nobody voted for what we have now.

 

[Morgy]

The opinion may well have changed already, but you can see what is happening, the UK leaving is the thin end of the wedge

 

[Sauer90]

And there you have it...

You could have said the same about those the referendum in 1975. Lets not forget that nobody voted for what we have now.

 

[Chasey]

Ah, the Brexit question again and the usual crop of remoaners and b'leavers.
This island of ours must be, and to my mind is a wonderful place, the best place in the world.
That is why ever since man found out how to build boats, the Europeans have sought to get here.( Italians, French,Spanish,Scandinavians etc,etc)
What however now puzzles me (answers on a post card please) is that if the EU is so wonderful for all the countries involved in it, why are several hundred thousands of people still trying to come here. Why not stay at home and enjoy the wonderful benefits the EU has to offer.
To the leavers "Work hard at it,this place has existed for 1500 or more years on it's own (less the last 45 or so) and will continue to do so"
To the remainers "Sorry just get used to it, it's going to happen, and whatever you say now has no bearing on the subject".

The EU isn't a migration of labour club??? That's just a happy by product and yes I do meen happy because we have benefited massively from migrant labour.

The EU /EEC was set up to give it members trade adavantages

The EU was set up to provide a stable Europe and avoid conflict

The EU was set up to provide government on trade, environment and well fair issues felt to benefit from coalission.

IE if we have to reduce our C02 emmisions but Poland doesent? we are working at a disadvantage. But if its an EU wide reduction? then its a level playing field

In 2017 the EU is now working against global terorisum as a single enterty allowing freedom of action and freedom of information across member states to fight terror

THAT is what the EU was meant to be about not some petty concerns over a perceived impact of economic migration that never stood up to independent informed scrutiny.

And ill say it again (despite the fact no one will listen). The number of migrants we take in is tiny compared to our main EU cousons.

 

[Hereford]

The collapse of the EU?

Last time that happened we went to war so lets hope it dosen't.

+ 1 - two generations of my family fought to unite Europe and secure peace in our time.

Lets get on with it though yes - I'm big enough to take the decision - just keep it accountable and factual and please don't let it be Theresa May's swan-song.

Thankfully the Netherlands have shone the first light and put populist right wing spin in its place - perhaps the UK and then the States binary actions have served as a warning to other countries - hopefully this will continue in France and Germany and the devisive 'patriotic spring' be pushed back further.

 

[JAYB]

I usually try and stay out of these style of thread, in fact my only input usually come when I have to close it! This one however seems to be managing to stay on the right side of civility so I will chance an input.

To my way of thinking it is not practical for the Country or indeed Europe as a whole to carry on it's present form, hence Brexit - the Nations choice. It is a decision that has been made and should therefore be got on with in an efficient and productive way as possible. The endless arguing over a decision already made is a fruitless exercise and I feel sure that if the effort put into this was put into our future, negotiations would advance much more profitably. All this political in fighting is doing is promoting the profile of the protagonists and weakening our negotiating position. If we can't agree amongst ourselves how can we expect to present a united front when negotiating, a point I suspect not lost on the EU negotiators.

Who stays and who goes is a bargaining chip, one that could easily be played now but as I understand it the EU will not accept a reciprocal agreement over the future of immigrants/migrants. Therefore for the PM to give assurances over their fate is impossible as it weakens our negotiating position.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people that come here to work and pay into the system, the problem lay with those that come here to work the system. We do not need any imported drain on the benefit system we have enough home grown leeches for that. Mass xenophobic hysteria is not the answer, clinical surgery of the problem is, removing the rubbish is the way forward IMHO.

It is not going to be easy, it is not going to please everyone, but hopefully the majority. It does however require room to manoeuvre and a stop put to the endless attempts to stall the process. The making public of our negotiating intentions prior to the actual event would be a bit like playing three card brag with all your cards being face up on the table and your opponents close to their chest.

So my take would be, get the negotiating done, then implement the results of them. BUT for Christ's sake do it together, this is the future of the UK not a general election.

I shall now leave the playground.

John

 

[JTO]

Think about the logic of what your saying?
Think about what you are reading into what I said. I merely pointed out that the tax paid by immigrants was not necessarily a plus.

Then think about UK citizens with property abroard, UK holiday makers, UK off shore tax situations like Google, Vodaphone etc etc.
None of that affects me.

The issue of imigrents sending a few hundred quid home each month rather than spending it on two weeks in the Costa Brava like most brits, is tiny.
My late sister worked in a bank until 1995. One of the customers, a Chinese 'waiter', was sending £2,000 a month back to Hong Kong.


I have said it before ill say it again for what its worth.


The EU was a mess and needed fixing. Leaving was stupid and fixed nothing
There is a feeling in the UK that we were never going to be capable of getting it fixed. It was like a conscientious person trying to stop a government department wasting money.

In 20 -30 years time there may or may not be a benefit in having left the EU. I cant see it my self but then I thaught property prices had peeked in 2009 so WTF do I know
And I thought all the strikes for higher pay in the 60's were going to devalue money, so I bought property in 1971, but WTF do I know.

I voted Brexit for the good of future generations. You voted Remain for the same reason.

 

[tackb]

Think about the logic of what your saying?

Then think about UK citizens with property abroard, UK holiday makers, UK off shore tax situations like Google, Vodaphone etc etc.

The issue of imigrents sending a few hundred quid home each month rather than spending it on two weeks in the Costa Brava like most brits, is tiny.


I have said it before ill say it again for what its worth.

The system is screwed up. Befits, housing etc etc its al a mess. We should be fixing it but instead we will be wasting bliions on the whole Brexit fiasco.

Brexit in and of itself will solve absolutely nothing of value. in your opinion

The imigrants will still be here, new imigrants will still come here and tax dodging scum and lazy benefit cheats will still be holding hard working people to ransom. correct but the definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result !

The EU was a mess and needed fixing. Leaving was stupid and fixed nothing in your opinion but lets give it time eh?

The EU to survive must make an example of us. They must screw us over so badly every other member is frightend to leave. perhaps people don't scare as easily as you ?

Its what id do

In 20 -30 years time there may or may not be a benefit in having left the EU. I cant see it my self but then I thaught property prices had peeked in 2009 so WTF do I know

I saw a chart of member states contributions , only four or five were paying in more than they took , the rest were taking more than they paid in , that business model is doomed to fail !

and most of the Italians / French / dutch I deal with believe the EU is doomed and want to leave as well , in fact a rather arrogant german is the only one who thinks it's a good union and he said that Germany will find a way to force us to stay .

 

[2130martin]

Yes only in the case of elections, five years later you can change your mind. In this case, the people who don't want to leave the EU are stuffed on that front for at least a generation.

BUUUUTTTTT.......what about the voters that didn't want to join the EU????.......surely its there once in a generation time???

 

[JTO]

I saw a chart of member states contributions , only four or five were paying in more than they took , the rest were taking more than they paid in , that business model is doomed to fail !

Like I said: International Socialism, and that's what the EUSR is all about.

 

[User00025]

I usually try and stay out of these style of thread, in fact my only input usually come when I have to close it! This one however seems to be managing to stay on the right side of civility so I will chance an input.

To my way of thinking it is not practical for the Country or indeed Europe as a whole to carry on it's present form, hence Brexit - the Nations choice. It is a decision that has been made and should therefore be got on with in an efficient and productive way as possible. The endless arguing over a decision already made is a fruitless exercise and I feel sure that if the effort put into this was put into our future, negotiations would advance much more profitably. All this political in fighting is doing is promoting the profile of the protagonists and weakening our negotiating position. If we can't agree amongst ourselves how can we expect to present a united front when negotiating, a point I suspect not lost on the EU negotiators.

Who stays and who goes is a bargaining chip, one that could easily be played now but as I understand it the EU will not accept a reciprocal agreement over the future of immigrants/migrants. Therefore for the PM to give assurances over their fate is impossible as it weakens our negotiating position.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people that come here to work and pay into the system, the problem lay with those that come here to work the system. We do not need any imported drain on the benefit system we have enough home grown leeches for that. Mass xenophobic hysteria is not the answer, clinical surgery of the problem is, removing the rubbish is the way forward IMHO.

It is not going to be easy, it is not going to please everyone, but hopefully the majority. It does however require room to manoeuvre and a stop put to the endless attempts to stall the process. The making public of our negotiating intentions prior to the actual event would be a bit like playing three card brag with all your cards being face up on the table and your opponents close to their chest.

So my take would be, get the negotiating done, then implement the results of them. BUT for Christ's sake do it together, this is the future of the UK not a general election.

I shall now leave the playground.

John

+1 John, very well put.

 

[JTO]

+1 John, very well put.

+ another 1

 

[2130martin]

I usually try and stay out of these style of thread, in fact my only input usually come when I have to close it! This one however seems to be managing to stay on the right side of civility so I will chance an input.

To my way of thinking it is not practical for the Country or indeed Europe as a whole to carry on it's present form, hence Brexit - the Nations choice. It is a decision that has been made and should therefore be got on with in an efficient and productive way as possible. The endless arguing over a decision already made is a fruitless exercise and I feel sure that if the effort put into this was put into our future, negotiations would advance much more profitably. All this political in fighting is doing is promoting the profile of the protagonists and weakening our negotiating position. If we can't agree amongst ourselves how can we expect to present a united front when negotiating, a point I suspect not lost on the EU negotiators.

Who stays and who goes is a bargaining chip, one that could easily be played now but as I understand it the EU will not accept a reciprocal agreement over the future of immigrants/migrants. Therefore for the PM to give assurances over their fate is impossible as it weakens our negotiating position.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people that come here to work and pay into the system, the problem lay with those that come here to work the system. We do not need any imported drain on the benefit system we have enough home grown leeches for that. Mass xenophobic hysteria is not the answer, clinical surgery of the problem is, removing the rubbish is the way forward IMHO.

It is not going to be easy, it is not going to please everyone, but hopefully the majority. It does however require room to manoeuvre and a stop put to the endless attempts to stall the process. The making public of our negotiating intentions prior to the actual event would be a bit like playing three card brag with all your cards being face up on the table and your opponents close to their chest.

So my take would be, get the negotiating done, then implement the results of them. BUT for Christ's sake do it together, this is the future of the UK not a general election.

I shall now leave the playground.

John

+1
Gina Miller and Co did our negotiating position no favours at all!!!

 

[african jack]

What had the EU got to do with the last war IT DID NOT EVEN EXIST so how did it collapse and cause the war

The collapse of the EU?

Last time that happened we went to war so lets hope it dosen't.

 

[tackb]

What had the EU got to do with the last war IT DID NOT EVEN EXIST

wasn't a german wanting a super state that caused it ?

 

[Chasey]

I voted Brexit for the good of future generations. You voted Remain for the same reason.

The future generations are pretty ****ed off with Brexit from what I gather, so perhaps we screwed up

 

[african jack]

Correct they could not come in the front door so they came in the backdoor

wasn't a german wanting a super state that caused it ?