Brexit

[LeftHandGuy]

I think his argument is more one of utility than morality. Do you suggest that allying with Stalin, facilitating and condoning horrendous purges and mass murder, and the hostile occupation of a dozen countries for forty years was morally correct?

No, I think we fundamentally betrayed first Czechoslovakia then Poland. Doubly so the Czechs!

Had we not entered World War 2, and at the time one must remember that we didn't have formidable forces, who's to say that fascism and communism might have cancelled each other out. Either way, the result we got - the "morally correct" one condemned half the world to communism for forty years, with the countless millions of murders and torture that involved, and created the conditions that led to the catastrophic wars and famines across Africa and the Middle East we still have today. It might feel that what we did was the morally correct thing to do, but that is not necessarily true.

Indeed, but to suggest targeting a country allied militarily to another country is not a hostile act against both is wrong. That's how alliances work.

 

[tozzybum]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but try and buy some ,find some or order some ,what seems morally correct at the time is history,s to review at leisure .If the people of Britain and America hadn,t stood up to Fascism and the Soviet /German pact who would know if they hadn,t joined forces to take us out .
Nobody knew the war would remap the world order and today no one can see where the battle against ISIS is going so do what you think is right for you and yours but do not be surprised if you get it wrong in the eyes of the next generation.

 

[Apthorpe]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but try and buy some ,find some or order some ,what seems morally correct at the time is history,s to review at leisure .If the people of Britain and America hadn,t stood up to Fascism and the Soviet /German pact who would know if they hadn,t joined forces to take us out .
Nobody knew the war would remap the world order and today no one can see where the battle against ISIS is going so do what you think is right for you and yours but do not be surprised if you get it wrong in the eyes of the next generation.

Well, even with foresight we knew very clearly that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were never going to join forces. That's one of the only things we can be confident of. Condoning each other carving up Poland and the Baltics in the short term isn't the same thing.
The people of America quite frankly had no interest in standing up to fascism and their own government's level of international racism was excessive, the Americans just took that knowingly as an opportunity to remap the world order.

 

[Apthorpe]

No, I think we fundamentally betrayed first Czechoslovakia then Poland. Doubly so the Czechs!



Indeed, but to suggest targeting a country allied militarily to another country is not a hostile act against both is wrong. That's how alliances work.

A hostile act and an act of aggression or an act of war are different. The invasion of Poland was an act of war against Poland and not an act of war against Britain and France - that is why they thought they could get away with it.

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

to the present situation where I can go to France and set up my own business tomorrow

Well Chasey if you genuinely believe you can pop across to France on a Friday and set up a business that day then I can only salute your optimism and determination.

Kidding and joking aside, senior professional and managerial staff, academics, star football players etc will be OK as their multi-national, university, or big-name football club employers will sort out the residence and work permit hurdles. At the other end of the spectrum the kids will still bounce about exuberantly, untroubled by the rules, picking up whatever casual work they can get, much as now. The impact will be on those of us in the middle, but how many Brit mechanics, bus drivers, account clerkesses and so on actually want to relocate to continental Europe? Not that many, I suspect.

One group with a problem will be those who have retired to the sun. The host nations will not be slow to realise that these pensioners are not high spenders or high tax payers, but will be putting demands on health care and social services.

 

[JTO]

Well Chasey if you genuinely believe you can pop across to France on a Friday and set up a business that day then I can only salute your optimism and determination.

One group with a problem will be those who have retired to the sun. The host nations will not be slow to realise that these pensioners are not high spenders or high tax payers, but will be putting demands on health care and social services.

+1. A friend living in France tells me it is expensive/difficult to start a business in France. He seems to think you have to pay a years projected tax in advance.

They are having to pay c£120 a month for his wife's health insurance.

 

[2130martin]

+1. A friend living in France tells me it is expensive/difficult to start a business in France. He seems to think you have to pay a years projected tax in advance.

They are having to pay c£120 a month for his wife's health insurance.

That sounds like the EU equality we have got used to!!!

 

[Pine Marten]

+1. A friend living in France tells me it is expensive/difficult to start a business in France.

Yes, but that is exactly the same as for the French in France. Which is the point.

 

[timbrayford]

I will grant you that the case of Poland during the Second World War is somewhat more constructed - but you are surely not going to suggest that going to war against Nazism was anything other the morally correct thing to do?

Absolutely it was morally correct, but back to my original point I just feel that the contempt that Mr Juncker and his colleagues at the European Commission have expressed for the UK after our vote for Brexit is totally out of order, especially after generous sacrifices that our nation has made for the European nations.

 

[Pine Marten]

OK, this may be a controversial point, but this was a long time ago. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter, but things have moved along quite a lot since 1945. And it's not like the rest of Europe didn't suffer too. That's the whole point. Not to let it happen again.

I mean you don't have a debt of gratitude to a nation for ever and ever. Neither is it legitimate to berate old enemies for ever. I mean otherwise we'd never move on.

 

[nun_hunter]

Whatever you might think of the morality of the German actions on neither occasion did they initiate hostilities against us, it is simply a case of other European nations dragging us into their conflicts

You're making a major assumption that once the Germans had conquered all of Europe they would have just left us alone?

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Absolutely it was morally correct, but back to my original point I just feel that the contempt that Mr Juncker and his colleagues at the European Commission have expressed for the UK after our vote for Brexit is totally out of order, especially after generous sacrifices that our nation has made for the European nations.

I'd agree that it's sad if the UK is now being treated with contempt - my finger is a little off the pulse. But then we (the British people) have just rejected them (the rest of the EU). The sense of betrayal (justified or not) cuts in all directions.

 

[Bandit Country]

Yes, but that is exactly the same as for the French in France. Which is the point.

Which is possibly why so many French folk are working over here? Which really is the point.

Not only do we import more goods from Europe than we export, it's the same with people. The UK is an attractive place to work for hundreds of thousands of other EU nationals. There is obviously work for them to do which benefits the UK economy. The idea of a 'hard' Brexit (WTFTI?) is ludicrous on both sides of the argument - it is really politicians willy-waving. Repatriating the current cohort of European nationals would damage the UK economy. If vengeful EU bureaucrats insist on closing off borders then how are they going to cope with hordes of suddenly redundant folk traipsing home? Other than massaging inflated egos it's lose/lose. Unfortunately I have very little faith in the competence of politicians or civil servants in either camp. My forecast? There will be winners and losers. In general, rich and influential people in both the UK and rest of Europe will get richer and everyone else will get screwed... again.

 

[Bandit Country]

The sense of betrayal (justified or not) cuts in all directions.

I certainly don't feel betrayed. If anyone in the EU feels 'betrayed' it simply confirms how blinkered, deluded, divorced from reality they are.

A referendum was promised. It really wasn't a big secret, so there's a bit of a 'head's up'. That nice Mr Cameron went over to ask for some concessions to keep the gravy train on the tracks, so clearly the UK PM had some concerns. Again, a fairly obvious indicator that things weren't all rosy in the garden. Unfortunately, the nice sensitive, empathetic and understanding folk in Brussels humiliated the bloke by sending him home with a lot of hot air. No worries, those stroppy Brits are always huffing and puffing. They won't vote to leave, 'course they won't..... oh dear! 'Betrayed'? I think not. What's the word I'm looking for? Hubris.

 

[timbrayford]

I'd agree that it's sad if the UK is now being treated with contempt - my finger is a little off the pulse. But then we (the British people) have just rejected them (the rest of the EU). The sense of betrayal (justified or not) cuts in all directions.

But it doesn't justify Juncker's petulant behaviour, no good can come from his self-centred childish conduct.

 

[Apthorpe]

OK, this may be a controversial point, but this was a long time ago. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter, but things have moved along quite a lot since 1945. And it's not like the rest of Europe didn't suffer too. That's the whole point. Not to let it happen again.

I mean you don't have a debt of gratitude to a nation for ever and ever. Neither is it legitimate to berate old enemies for ever. I mean otherwise we'd never move on.

The notion of any debt is that it stands to be repaid at some point. Fat chance!
Anyway, how long do you think is the appropriate interval before writing off the sacrifice of a million and a half lives for their benefit?

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I have had a german partner for 37 years now so have met many germans through her and my work they have put behind them the stupidness of their parents generation and have almost 100% moved on, we brits seem to wallow in the past and the past cannot be brought back, it happened I lost relative that I never got to know my partner also. Just lets stop this nationalist bullishness from rising again.
Another point kind of connected though to this thread is that I started at a luxury UK car firm last monday and almost all the leather workers are Polish, funny that!

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Not really:-

WW1 The Germans wanted to invade France and asked the Belgians to allow 3 military trains passage to the French border, the Belgians refused and as guarantors to their independence we were dragged in.

WW2. Germans invaded Poland as Polish allies both ourselves and the French declared war on Germany, France then invaded Germany (unsuccessfully) and again we were dragged in.

Whatever you might think of the morality of the German actions on neither occasion did they initiate hostilities against us, it is simply a case of other European nations dragging us into their conflicts

When did France invade Germany?

 

[Apthorpe]

When did France invade Germany?

1923

 

[Jon Smith]

Reality is that history does not mean truth, history is written by the victors.