Buying a rifle (with ammo) via RFD to RFD transfer

[kenbro]

This is just my take but;
Since 450 mile round trip is about £60 in fuel plus time, how does this stack against transfer fees + waiting time + courier service charges plus time going to and from the receiving RFD?

Surely collecting it yourself is,
Cheaper
More gratifying as you have the rifle asap
And;
If all is not well with the rifle you have saved yourself some money

Wish my wheels would go 450 miles for £60 worth of diesel!
Ken.
PS. Have heard that two or more R.F.D.s have lost their license due to not following
the official route when asked to transfer firearms. IIT, IDK.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

You have a bigger issue
you can't ship ammo with firearms


Also parcelforce can't ship ammo full stop.
hazmat shipping of even one box will cost someone circa £40-50 in excess of the £25-40 you will pay to ship the gun.

as for the farcical situation that the police are now increasing the risk of fraudulent gun sales and lost FACs, don't get me started on that.
if the BASC advise you to keep your FAC during the variation process to make sure YOU have a copy at all times so it is not lost or destroyed on error

WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY would you entrust it to a bunch of part time letter sorters with a history of losing stuff!?!?
Twice!!! (there and back!!)


i receive an email monthly of lost or stolen guns and certificate numbers
it usually includes upwards of FOUR PAGES of lost or stolen certificates
i have absolutely no doubt that many of them are lost during the ridiculous paper chase.

IMO this process only exists due to the lack of national database and the fact that rfd's do not update notifications of transfer between each other, those transfers are only picked up on the police system at audit or rfd renewal IF that particular gun is still with that RFD being audited.

The need for a national database and intra authority parity on systems in use is very clear.

but no.
we have to post one of the most one of the most valuable bits of paper...twice

many FAC photos are very poor
a valid FAC with a vacant authority goes missing
how hard would it be to rock up at dealer and buy what is authorised by someone who vaguely resembles the owner?
that is only one of the (possibly contrived) situations
the other is you just lose it and wait weeks for a replacement, can't buy ammo, can't produce it when required...


Crackers

 

[EMcC]

If I had one for sale, I would sell it to my local RFD then tell him about a guy the other side of UK that is looking for exactly the type and description of rifle I have just sold him.
The guy the other side of UK would then get in touch with his local RFD and tell him of an RFD my side of UK that has exactly the type and description of rifle he wants.
His local RFD would then get in touch with the RFD my side of UK and arrange to buy it off of him and on receipt sell it to his local guy that was looking for it.
Like that nobody loses sight of their FC and the paper trail is all recorded by authorised persons.

If my vehicle was so good on MPG then I would contact the buyer/seller direct - but it's nowhere near what was suggested

 

[8x57]

Fortunately the mpg on my vehicle is slightly better than that. Have you tried arranging to meet and buy from the seller half way? I've done it several times when buying or selling guns. Just be careful and discreet.

 

[Greymaster]

I have thought about this, but been working 6 days a week since new year and only getting the odd day off here and There, then the thought of spending 6 hours driving isn't that appealing. I might have to consider it though.

Cut travel time and cost in half by meeting half-way?

 

[Whitebeard]

It amazes me of the reluctance of many prospective buyers of firearms to travel to purchase, my last purchase was a 120 mile round trip prior to that, 420 mile round trip and my car is not the most economical

Ian.

 

[baguio]

It all becomes really awkward if the rifle arrives at your local RFD and it's not as described too. You will have already parted with your money by then too. See link below. Recovering Funds from a private sales forum purchase

 

[Whitebeard]

It all becomes really awkward if the rifle arrives at your local RFD and it's not as described too. You will have already parted with your money by then too. See link below. Recovering Funds from a private sales forum purchase

+1

Ian.

 

[Redleg]

Why should I have to travel when there is a perfectly good system in place to transfer a firearm.
Why fix something that isn't broken.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Why should I have to travel when there is a perfectly good system in place to transfer a firearm.
Why fix something that isn't broken.

I wouldn't describe the current system as perfectly good - more like stupidly awkward and expensive

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Redleg]

I wouldn't describe the current system as perfectly good - more like stupidly awkward and expensive

Cheers

Bruce

I'm not sure what the alternative would be.
Unfortunately people with (allegedly ) more intelligence than us decide what's best for us.

 

[kenbro]

If I had one for sale, I would sell it to my local RFD then tell him about a guy the other side of UK that is looking for exactly the type and description of rifle I have just sold him.
The guy the other side of UK would then get in touch with his local RFD and tell him of an RFD my side of UK that has exactly the type and description of rifle he wants.
His local RFD would then get in touch with the RFD my side of UK and arrange to buy it off of him and on receipt sell it to his local guy that was looking for it.

Would your local RFD actually buy the gun off you,or, break the law and pretend to buy it. (No paper trail) which ever way, he would have to register it on his books.
Then, would the 2nd RFD actually pay out of his bank account (Paper trail)to buy from RFD 1?
And what happens when the local guy who’s looking to buy, sees the gun and decides it’s not for him?
Ken.

 

[potshotpat]

If I had one for sale, I would sell it to my local RFD then tell him about a guy the other side of UK that is looking for exactly the type and description of rifle I have just sold him.
The guy the other side of UK would then get in touch with his local RFD and tell him of an RFD my side of UK that has exactly the type and description of rifle he wants.
His local RFD would then get in touch with the RFD my side of UK and arrange to buy it off of him and on receipt sell it to his local guy that was looking for it.

Would your local RFD actually buy the gun off you,or, break the law and pretend to buy it. (No paper trail) which ever way, he would have to register it on his books.
Then, would the 2nd RFD actually pay out of his bank account (Paper trail)to buy from RFD 1?
And what happens when the local guy who’s looking to buy, sees the gun and decides it’s not
Ken.

If iv,e got this right what's in it for the RFD, They could stop at home and earn nowt

 

[Redleg]

If i have this right?
The private seller can not just employ any courier to carry a firearm, the seller has to go to a registered RFD to post the rifle anyway?
So, i post my FAC to the private seller who upon receipt of my FAC entered all the details of the rifle & mod onto my FAC then posts it back to me?
the rifle in the mean time is placed into the care of the sellers local RFD who upon receipt of the buyers nominated RFD details sends the rifle to the buyers nominated RFD.
The buyer then goes to his local RFD to pick up the rifle without any paperwork been filled out?
Have i got this right?

 

[mealiejimmy]

If i have this right?
The private seller can not just employ any courier to carry a firearm, the seller has to go to a registered RFD to post the rifle anyway?
So, i post my FAC to the private seller who upon receipt of my FAC entered all the details of the rifle & mod onto my FAC then posts it back to me?
the rifle in the mean time is placed into the care of the sellers local RFD who upon receipt of the buyers nominated RFD details sends the rifle to the buyers nominated RFD.
The buyer then goes to his local RFD to pick up the rifle without any paperwork been filled out?
Have i got this right?

That's exactly my understanding of how it's supposed to work. Only the seller enters anything on the buyers certificate. The RFDs handle the physical transfer of the rifle - and can, of course charge for their their work involved in this aspect of the change in ownership.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[8x57]

If i have this right?
The private seller can not just employ any courier to carry a firearm, the seller has to go to a registered RFD to post the rifle anyway?
So, i post my FAC to the private seller who upon receipt of my FAC entered all the details of the rifle & mod onto my FAC then posts it back to me?
the rifle in the mean time is placed into the care of the sellers local RFD who upon receipt of the buyers nominated RFD details sends the rifle to the buyers nominated RFD.
The buyer then goes to his local RFD to pick up the rifle without any paperwork been filled out?
Have i got this right?

Correct but not forgetting to take his FAC with him that the seller has already filled out. The receiving RFD needs to confirm the details before actually handing over the firearm.

 

[Orvil]

You've got the jist of it.
The old way worked and as far as overall security was concerned, ideal. Only problem was it was not the legally prescribed method.
I transfer on average, 3 guns a week for distance sales and adhere to the legal method as I'll be f***ed if I'm loosing my business doing somebody a favour!
The prescribed method has more holes than a pair of fishnets and most savvy FEO's will privately agree but it's the system that's in place.
Edinburgh Rifles has it nailed with the limboland regarding firearms on RFD registers and it's something a number of us have been talking about also in the SE. Limited access to the NFLMS would be ideal but it's not nationwide... Also, in the real world it'll never happen due to the dreaded "data protection act".
Swerves like the one suggested of receiving RFD purchasing item from seller then selling on to targetted purchasers RFD who sells it on to end purchaser has way too many risks involved and RFD's do NOT want to be caught with stock they've paid for only to be told by the end purchaser that it's "not my colour" or "the threads the wrong pitch". I speak from experience here and doing a favour for somebody on a distance purchase will eventually bite you in the arse. If you want to avoid tx fee's, do as suggested and do some mileage. It's the only way

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

"Guidance for the holder of this certificate
Please ensure that anyone who sells, lets on hire, gives or lend you a firearm and/or ammunition reads these notes.


Guidance to anybody who sells, lets on hire, gives or lends firearms and/or ammunition to the holder of this certificate:

1) You MUST complete each column of Table 1 Firearms or Table 2 Ammunition

2) If you are a registered firearms dealer or a person who is entitled to possess a firearm without a certificate,
YOU MUST inform the Chief of Police who issued the certificate within 7 days about the transaction by recorded delivery or permitted electronic means.
You should provide a description of the firearm (including its identification number, if any)
You MUST state whether the firearms was sold let on hire, given or lent, and give the name and address of the holder of this certificate.

3) any circumstances attending the transaction which appear to require investigation MUST be reported within 48 hours to the Chief Office of the Police who granted this certificate.

4) If you are selling a firearms and/or ammunition which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the tables(s) and notify the police of the transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above).
The dealer who actually hands over the firearm and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above)."


So the flaws here are:

1) legal statement and definition of "should" and "must"
2) the guidance to anyone selling remotely is written on a certificate they do not have in front of them as its a remote sale
3) what happens if it is "shipped on spec" to be paid for later if purchased?
4) regardless of who pays for what, an RFD has to book in received firearms into the register regardless of who actually owns it at the time.
5) two way postage of a certificate at best 3 days round trip, at worst over a week and a huge security risk

 

[Pedro]

You're buying a rifle. How many times do you actually do that in your life? Take a day off. Take the significant other. Have a leisurely drive and stop off somewhere nice for a spot of lunch. All being well, get the rifle. Pop in somewhere (an opportunity to try another gun shop you wouldn't normally visit) and pick up some ammo. Maybe indulge yourself and even perhaps stay over somewhere interesting, perhaps even make a weekend of it. You can, after all get a room for around fifty quid. You may be indispensable at work, but always remember, if you were to cease to exist tomorrow, the world would still keep on turning.

Turn a potential posting nightmare into an enjoyable event. Because shooting and all it entails should be enjoyable. Hoorah!

 

[gigidygigidy]

You're buying a rifle. How many times do you actually do that in your life? Take a day off. Take the significant other. Have a leisurely drive and stop off somewhere nice for a spot of lunch. All being well, get the rifle. Pop in somewhere (an opportunity to try another gun shop you wouldn't normally visit) and pick up some ammo. Maybe indulge yourself and even perhaps stay over somewhere interesting, perhaps even make a weekend of it. You can, after all get a room for around fifty quid. You may be indispensable at work, but always remember, if you were to cease to exist tomorrow, the world would still keep on turning.

Turn a potential posting nightmare into an enjoyable event. Because shooting and all it entails should be enjoyable. Hoorah!

I want a cup of your optimism. That is a great plan A, if it all would fall into place.