Buying a rifle (with ammo) via RFD to RFD transfer

[8x57]

You're buying a rifle. How many times do you actually do that in your life?

Far too many times over the years if you ask my wife, but in actual fact 25 or26 times for rifles.


Going back to the actual wording on your firearms certificate I think that part of the confusion may be as a result of the words "Guidance to anybody who sells".
The use of the word "guidance" suggests you have an option when in fact you don't, perhaps it would be better to have worded it something like "Information to anybody who sells".

 

[Hornet 6]

Just how complicated can the powers that be make this ?
I'm about to give up shooting altogether I think, only got a shotgun and .22lr left.
I'll sell the shotgun to a local shop, as for the .22lr, it has loads of goodies on it, so I may well sell all the bits separately and hand the action in for destruction.

Neil.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Going back to the actual wording on your firearms certificate I think that part of the confusion may be as a result of the words "Guidance to anybody who sells".
The use of the word "guidance" suggests you have an option when in fact you don't, perhaps it would be better to have worded it something like "Information to anybody who sells".

Well as we are told by Firearms Offices around the country regularly that the Home Office Guidance is precisely that , and is not law, and they (the relevant Police Authority FEO) can interpret as they see fit.

The problem they have is that the elements of "must" are law, very clear, not guidance or interpretation.
Statutory notification Form 11 below quoting the Firearms Act (law):
No mention of any ridiculous restrictions of who paid for what where and how it was posted, shipped or otherwise delivered:


FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) ACT 1997 (abridged)

Failure to comply with any of the following sections is an offence punishable by a term of imprisonment of up to six months, a fine of up to £2000, or both.

Transfers of firearms etc. to be in person
32. Where, in Great Britain, a shot gun, firearm or ammunition is sold, hired, lent or given for more than 72 hours to neither a person who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who is exempt from requiring a certificate:
(a) The transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;
(b) The transferor must comply with instructions in the certificate or permit and must hand the shot gun, firearm and ammunition to the transferee in person.

Notifications of transfers of firearms and shot guns
33. Where in Great Britain, any firearm or shot gun is sold, hired, lent, or given for more than 72 hours:
(a) Any party to a transfer who holds a firearm or shot gun certificate or a visitor’s firearm or shot gun permit shall within seven days notify the Chief Officer of Police who granted his permit.
(b) The notice shall describe the firearm (giving its identification number); state the nature of the transaction and the name and address of any other party. The notice shall be sent by registered post or recorded delivery.

Notification of deactivation, destruction or loss, of firearms etc.
34.
(1) Where, in Great Britain any firearm, shot gun or ammunition to which a firearm or shot gun certificate or visitors permit relates is deactivated, destroyed or lost (whether by theft or otherwise), the certificate holder who was last in possession shall within seven days notify the Chief Officer of Police who granted his certificate or permit.
(2) The notice shall state the nature of the event and describe the firearm (giving its identification number) or ammunition. The notice shall be sent by registered post or recorded delivery.
(3) A firearm is deactivated if it is incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile and has a Certificate of Deactivation issued from a Proof House.

Notification of events taking place outside Great Britain involving firearms etc.
35.
(1) Where, outside Great Britain, any Firearm or Shot Gun is sold or otherwise disposed of which was authorised by a Firearm or Shot Gun Certificate, the transferor shall within 14 days notify the Chief Officer of Police who granted his certificate.

(2) Where, outside Great Britain, a Firearm or ammunition to which a Firearm Certificate or Shot Gun to which a Shot Gun Certificate relates is deactivated, destroyed or lost (whether by theft or otherwise) the certificate holder who was last in possession of the Firearm or ammunition shall within 14 days notify the Chief Officer of Police who granted the certificate.

(3) The notice shall state the nature of the event and, in the case of a disposal, the name and address of the other party and contain a description of the firearm or ammunition (giving any identification number) and shall be sent within 14 days by registered post or recorded delivery if from the United Kingdom; and from elsewhere, in a manner as most closely corresponds to registered post or recorded delivery.
Note: ‘In Great Britain’ means anywhere in England, Scotland or Wales
‘Outside Great Britain’ means elsewhere in the United Kingdom or any other country in the world
‘The United Kingdom’ means England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands and Isle of Man

 

[JTO]

I thought that an RFD had to enter any weapon that passes through their hands, in their register. Surely that does not signify ownership.

 

[rem284]

I recently sold a rifle. The new owner paid me through Bacs. My RFD said because of this the buyer will have to send his fac to me to fill in and I would have to send it back to him. I would then have to get my rfd to post to his rfd. He would then have to take his fac to his rfd to collect the rifle. My rfd said if the buyer had not paid me then I could have sold it to my rfd who in turn could have sold it to his rfd who in turn could have sold it to the buyer. To send it through my rfd he charged £35 transfer fee, £35 postage and wanted £10 to pack it(I done this myself). I then had to send my fac to the police to get amended. They return my FAC with authorisation to buy a 6.5x47 rifle but not authorisation to buy 6.5x47 ammo. When I emailed about this they said it is ok because I already have authority to buy 6.5-284 ammo I should be able to manage to get 6.5x47. I pointed out that I dont think so and the two rifles even though they are the same calibre, they wont shoot the same cartridge. I am expecting the 6.5x47 in April so I guess I will be arguing the point again. You would think they would employ experts in the firearms department. It does all seem to be bonkers

 

[rms364]

You're buying a rifle. How many times do you actually do that in your life? Take a day off. Take the significant other. Have a leisurely drive and stop off somewhere nice for a spot of lunch. All being well, get the rifle. Pop in somewhere (an opportunity to try another gun shop you wouldn't normally visit) and pick up some ammo. Maybe indulge yourself and even perhaps stay over somewhere interesting, perhaps even make a weekend of it. You can, after all get a room for around fifty quid. You may be indispensable at work, but always remember, if you were to cease to exist tomorrow, the world would still keep on turning.

Turn a potential posting nightmare into an enjoyable event. Because shooting and all it entails should be enjoyable. Hoorah!

That’s exactly what I did when I bought my Sako .222 from Yorkshire and I live near Malvern, Worcestershire

 

[njc110381]

I still don't understand why when the firearm is surrendered to the RFD it doesn't become their property? At that point they can do as they please with it, including send it to another. That other can then sell it. If all those transactions took place for £1 for example then the VAT would be next to nothing and if there was an issue either RFD will have lost a quid when a refund is given. Charge a nominal non refundable "advice" fee of whatever the transfer cost is going to be, plus handling.

That in my mind would comply with the law whilst keeping financial risk to a minimum. The original seller could sell the stock to the new owner for £1000 - it's not a restricted part.

 

[eddoakley]

Why would the RFD (or both of them) flirt with the boundaries so closely?
I think the system is ridiculous and had a conversation just this morning with an feo who completely agreed that the "old way" is much simpler and more secure. But rules is rules and if a firearms department was to see £1 transactions taking place then I'm sure that they would not be happy. It also only solves the issue of posting the cert not the whole transfer issue. Admin and postage costs would still be incurred.

Edd

 

[Orvil]

Edd,
You've got it in one.
I have this conversation at least once a week now. Last year it was all the time. I still encounter RFD's that want to do it the old way and the only thing I can do now is flat refuse a transfer because as I said in an earlier post I'm F****D if I'm loosing my business for a favour. FEO's up and down the length and breadth of the country will totally agree that the legal method is utterly bonkers but it's what we have to deal with. Perhaps going for a drive is the best option...

 

[njc110381]

Why would the RFD (or both of them) flirt with the boundaries so closely?
I think the system is ridiculous and had a conversation just this morning with an feo who completely agreed that the "old way" is much simpler and more secure. But rules is rules and if a firearms department was to see £1 transactions taking place then I'm sure that they would not be happy. It also only solves the issue of posting the cert not the whole transfer issue. Admin and postage costs would still be incurred.

Edd

Well the law has a clear line. It doesn't matter how close to it you are as long as it's not crossed. What I suggested would be 100% legal. Would the gun have been sold or not? The answer is yes, cheaply.

Fully appreciate why an RFD wouldn't want to do it, but that's a different matter. The advice fee could be made to cover what they think it is worth to do that job? Plenty sell £20 junk but functional shotguns to get rid of them, which is pretty much the same risk etc?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

I thought that an RFD had to enter any weapon that passes through their hands, in their register. Surely that does not signify ownership.

They do
It doesnt

I still don't understand why when the firearm is surrendered to the RFD it doesn't become their property? At that point they can do as they please with it, including send it to another. That other can then sell it. If all those transactions took place for £1 for example then the VAT would be next to nothing and if there was an issue either RFD will have lost a quid when a refund is given. Charge a nominal non refundable "advice" fee of whatever the transfer cost is going to be, plus handling.

That in my mind would comply with the law whilst keeping financial risk to a minimum. The original seller could sell the stock to the new owner for £1000 - it's not a restricted part.

Does your car become the property of the garage when you take it in for a service
Ownership and authority to possess are two very different things

obtuse financial transactions are not required.
It is irrelevant whether sold, lent or given.

Why would the RFD (or both of them) flirt with the boundaries so closely?
I think the system is ridiculous and had a conversation just this morning with an feo who completely agreed that the "old way" is much simpler and more secure. But rules is rules and if a firearms department was to see £1 transactions taking place then I'm sure that they would not be happy. It also only solves the issue of posting the cert not the whole transfer issue. Admin and postage costs would still be incurred.

Edd

Sadly thats the whole point.
They are NOT rules, they are guidelines, totally outside the Firearms Act.

Well the law has a clear line. It doesn't matter how close to it you are as long as it's not crossed. What I suggested would be 100% legal. Would the gun have been sold or not? The answer is yes, cheaply.

Far from it.......
But on this occasion we appear to be self enforcing a farcical process in spite of it not being a law......

 

[njc110381]

Not when you take it in for a service no. But if you take it in and they take it from you with an agreement they won't give it you back it kind of does?

 

[bongo]

I want a cup of your optimism. That is a great plan A, if it all would fall into place.

Old thread sorry but reading it makes me laugh , 500 miles round trip in an old defender pi@@ing it down or snowing , Then your wallet gets hit for Fuel + food + hotel for two £300 for a £100 shotgun . £50 transfer fees if you pay for both ends . So many cons these days i would not send my cert to a stranger who sells a picture of a gun as its a con . How sweet and idyllic it was made to sound . No thanks the Mrs would not thank me for that romantic weekend lol .