DMQ Ban Use of Thermal for Level 2

[hottopic]

DMQ have decided to ban the use of thermal for a stalker finding a deer during the stalk. They are allowing it to be used to follow up if needed. I have my views on thermal and think as a tool to help locate a deer it is extremely useful and requires no less skill. You still need to identify the sex, get to within a safe place and a sensible range that goes with your own ability.

I think this is a backwards step and shows that DMQ are not aware of how real full time deer stalkers operate. If the level 2 is aimed at the hobby stalker then I can fully understand why a thermal shouldnt be used. Lets ban binoculars too, they give you too much of an advantage.

I will be speaking to my assessment center ASAP

HT

 

[User00003]

I feel the opposite. I think Thermal is just taking stalking to a level on par with the ridiculous. I mean no offense, but what is next, shooting with remote guns from behind your computer at home..

Part of deer stalking is moving quietly at all times as you never know if and when a deer might appear...knowing in advance where they are just ruins the element of surprise.

I feel the same about fish finders, unless you are doing it for a living and rely on producing revenue to keep your business afloat or family fed, then bloody just enjoy fishing, learn to read the water, learn to know where the fish (or deer for that matter) will appear, under what conditions, times of year, time of day, when they feed, etc...then, when you have put enough investment into learning, will you reap the rewards of the gratification associated with understanding deer or fish behaviour, when to find them, where, and so on...

Genuinely, those that rely on Thermal for leisurely deer stalking, go find another hobby..

I may **** some people off saying that, but hey, that is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

 

[enfieldspares]

Lets ban binoculars too, they give you too much of an advantage.

It's why I don't support any of this DSC1 and DSC2 nonsense as it gives a legitimacy to such views. Like the BDS efforts that introduced an artificial velocity floor into the 1960s deer legislation that resulted in a de facto ban on 6.5x53R and 6.5x54MS on the hill.

What next a ban on laser rangefinders so as "To give the deer a chance?" Personally I don't have a problem with anything that helps a rifle reach a successful conclusion to a stalk that leaves no footprint on the landscape is to be welcomed. If it helps him find his deer quicker, take it, and then be gone safely before the weather turns or dusk falls the better. If the taking of a deer is his be all and end all good. But even so you can still enjoy the craic of it with your stalker with or without thermal imagers.

Modern technology, Ordnance Survey maps, GPS, etc., etc., are whether we like it or not here and, besides, thermal imaging tools taken on the hill can save lives and/or find injured fallen deer that need to be humanely put down. It is a backwards step as a test of stalking skill should test skills using all available aids. That may be laser rangefinders, telescopic sights, binoculars, a good draw telescope, or, yes, GPS, walkie-talkies and even a thermal imager. Or are we to say that a good, powerful, quality draw telescope gives the user an unfair advantage over a rifle who owns only a set of 7x binoculars?

I don't own a thermal imager but for those that do..well...good luck. If they have one it is useful that there is an element of any test that the owner can measure his ability to use it against a benchmark so they may improve themselves. If DMQ can't see this then let them stay in the 20th Century.

Some people would still have us shooting using muzzleloading rifles with paper wrapped bullets and extracting the carcass by pony? There's an element in some of Blimpishness to this, like the old time frowning on of over and under guns on driven days, and, within some in the deer community I am sure, snobbery.

 

[User00025]

Some people would still have us shooting using muzzleloading rifles with paper wrapped bullets and extracting the carcass by pony? There's an element in some of Blimpishness to this, like the old time frowning on of over and under guns on driven days, and, within some in the deer community I am sure, snobbery.

You must admit it would be and make for much more interesting deer stalking, similar to lobbing a 168gr bullet from a 6.5 x 54MS at a 200yd Red stag. And you just leave the Colonel out of it, some of us like tradition.

 

[joed]

Dont see a problem with people doing as they see fit as long as safe and legal. Id like to understand more as to why the DMQ are banning it. It does seem more like a codgers decision...no offence intended

 

[hottopic]

Are they using dogs to kill the deer or guns / rifles? The spotter isnt killing them is it?

There seems to be quite a clear divide which I think it good, the hobby stalker who should not be using a thermal because it might lessen their hunting experience and the professional who has a job to do.

My job is to shoot deer and if a thermal helps me do that I am going to use it. The FC are the same and they all now use them too.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

Are they using dogs to kill the deer or guns / rifles? The spotter isnt killing them is it?

There seems to be quite a clear divide which I think it good, the hobby stalker who should not be using a thermal because it might lessen their hunting experience and the professional who has a job to do.

My job is to shoot deer and if a thermal helps me do that I am going to use it. The FC are the same and they all now use them too.

I agree I only stalk for recreation to me half of the fun is finding them using the binoculars my close friend has been working as a ranger in Kielder for over 10 years and he has started using a thermal imager which allows him to do his job more efficiently whereas if I have two or three blank outings I'm not bothered.

 

[mealiejimmy]

I'm no expert in this field, but do people employed or contracted by FC to carry out deer culling have to be DMQ qualified?
If so, and FC permits (probably actively encourages) the use of thermal spotters, then it seems to me that part of their DMQ examination should include a section where the candidate should be able to demonstrate their ability to use a thermal spotter correctly.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Cris]

Not sure what the fuss is about. DSC was and is a base level none professional qualification. People over rate it and for the inexperianced may be a good thing as its one less bit of high tech kit to fumble with in front of an AW.

 

[kenbro]

It's why I don't support any of this DSC1 and DSC2 nonsense as it gives a legitimacy to such views. Like the BDS efforts that introduced an artificial velocity floor into the 1960s deer legislation that resulted in a de facto ban on 6.5x53R and 6.5x54MS on the hill.

What next a ban on laser rangefinders so as "To give the deer a chance?" Personally I don't have a problem with anything that helps a rifle reach a successful conclusion to a stalk that leaves no footprint on the landscape is to be welcomed. If it helps him find his deer quicker, take it, and then be gone safely before the weather turns or dusk falls the better. If the taking of a deer is his be all and end all good. But even so you can still enjoy the craic of it with your stalker with or without thermal imagers.

Modern technology, Ordnance Survey maps, GPS, etc., etc., are whether we like it or not here and, besides, thermal imaging tools taken on the hill can save lives and/or find injured fallen deer that need to be humanely put down. It is a backwards step as a test of stalking skill should test skills using all available aids. That may be laser rangefinders, telescopic sights, binoculars, a good draw telescope, or, yes, GPS, walkie-talkies and even a thermal imager. Or are we to say that a good, powerful, quality draw telescope gives the user an unfair advantage over a rifle who owns only a set of 7x binoculars?

I don't own a thermal imager but for those that do..well...good luck. If they have one it is useful that there is an element of any test that the owner can measure his ability to use it against a benchmark so they may improve themselves. If DMQ can't see this then let them stay in the 20th Century.

Some people would still have us shooting using muzzleloading rifles with paper wrapped bullets and extracting the carcass by pony? There's an element in some of Blimpishness to this, like the old time frowning on of over and under guns on driven days, and, within some in the deer community I am sure, snobbery.

As Simon would say...A big fat yes to this.
Ken.

 

[paul o']

they will be using drones soon to count deer then call in the stalker and hover above it , no skill in that then ,tracking yes I use a seek but thermal hunting its not culling yes

 

[Tom D]

This is an interesting one, I’ve had a go with a thermal and it’s a game changer for sure. You could say essential kit for a pro. By pro I mean a culler. But would you want to,use one on your weekend outing? Maybe some would.. I don’t think I would. But if I had to kill 50 hinds in a forestry block I want one for sure. I would say that for the DSC it ought to be covered in the material but perhaps not allowed for the actual stalk. Tracking and field craft should still be the main skills on test, nothing wrong with mastering the basics. You can always use thermal later..

 

[smullery]

DMQ have decided to ban the use of thermal for a stalker finding a deer during the stalk. They are allowing it to be used to follow up if needed. I have my views on thermal and think as a tool to help locate a deer it is extremely useful and requires no less skill. You still need to identify the sex, get to within a safe place and a sensible range that goes with your own ability.

I think this is a backwards step and shows that DMQ are not aware of how real full time deer stalkers operate. If the level 2 is aimed at the hobby stalker then I can fully understand why a thermal shouldnt be used. Lets ban binoculars too, they give you too much of an advantage.

I will be speaking to my assessment center ASAP

HT

HT,

Good idea, speak to your assessment centre. They should be able to offer you a place on the DSC2-T course for an additional £250.

Stan

 

[sikamalc]

Thermals, drones.........jesus what ever happened to just being a stalker. learning field craft, knowing the land you have to manage and the species of deer on it.

Thermals may be ok for tracking a wounded deer on the odd occasion but spotting deer with them...................not for me. The last person who mentioned bringing a drone on my ground was told politely that would be fine, as long as I could bring my 12 gauge to blow it out of the sky .

Its not stalking and field craft if you have to use any of these in my opinion, and I for one agree with DMQ.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

It is a strange decision as I believe more than 50% of UK stalkers now use a Thermal Viewer to aid their stalking. Whatever the pros and cons of thermal....let's be pragmatic: The technology is available. It is Legal. It is used by many. It works.

 

[User00043]

It is a strange decision as I believe more than 50% of UK stalkers now use a Thermal Viewer to aid their stalking. Whatever the pros and cons of thermal....let's be pragmatic: The technology is available. It is Legal. It is used by many. It works.

It may legal it may be used by many and I sure it works but I total agree with sikamalc it's not stalking

Paul

 

[25 Sharps]

Thermals, drones.........jesus what ever happened to just being a stalker. learning field craft, knowing the land you have to manage and the species of deer on it.

Thermals may be ok for tracking a wounded deer on the odd occasion but spotting deer with them...................not for me. The last person who mentioned bringing a drone on my ground was told politely that would be fine, as long as I could bring my 12 gauge to blow it out of the sky .

Its not stalking and field craft if you have to use any of these in my opinion, and I for one agree with DMQ.

You've had prospective stalkers ask to bring a drone on??

I can see the benefit of thermals for those who have numbers to hit for the FC etc.

I have a thermal, I use it for rabbits, foxing etc. because I have one I do use it for stalking, however I spot more deer without using it i.e. bins or mk 1 eyeball, I'm not going to start leaving it at home though!

I really don't understand why they should be banned, they help you spot deer, that's it, the skill is still getting close enough for the shot, taking the shot and making it count.

 

[mealiejimmy]

This is what DMQ says it's objectives are:
"Deer Management Qualifications (DMQ) exists to promote high standards in the humane management of wild deer. This objective is supported by the deer sector and is achieved by a system which gives candidates the opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge and skills to a level of competence by means of a number of assessed criteria. These include; ecology, biology, marksmanship, law, safely and humanely culling deer, and dealing with carcasses hygienically through the Deer Stalking Certificates: DSC1 and DSC2."
Nowhere does it say anything about stalking, but it does quite clearly say "Humane management of deer".
Neither does the criteria by which a candidate is assessed mention anything about stalking skills.
It's pretty clear that many people use thermal spotters as part of their humane management activities, so I don't see any sensible reason for banning their use when being examined for a DMQ qualification.
If the objective of "humane deer management" is the principal driving force for DMQ, then surely how you achieve (within the law) that humane management is irrelevant.
The deer is just as humanely killed by someone sitting in a high seat as it is after a long, arduous and thoroughly enjoyable stalk.
Given the very large number of stalks which fail to produce a dead deer, the enjoyment the stalker gets from the actual stalk and the skills needed to bring it to a successful conclusion has nothing to do with humane management.


Cheers

Bruce

 

[Whitebeard]

I always thought the Deer Act says what is allowed and what is not, not DMQ??

Ian.

 

[Pete6.5]

managing muntjac or achieving large cull numbers on fallow I find thermal a great help if not a must. And for the roe buck cull it would be very easy to over shoot so I personally don't use it. But as I understand dmq2 is there to assess your level of competence of doing the job. I guess that some of the people making the rules do deer stalking as a hobby and enjoy the stalk witch is great but then forget there are people that see it as a job that must be done quickly and efficiently. Dmq should cater for both.