Bringing back brass from USA
- Thread starter Matt234
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flying felix
Well-Known Member
As long as the brass is not primed and not in quantities that would be considered over and above home loading, then it's never been a problem. American ITAR regulations makes allowances for the export without a licence for home loading. It's been covered a number of times on other threads.
Unfortunately things haven't changed yet and the only brass you can bring back currently is that classed as for shotguns.
There will undoubtedly be numerous posts saying "I've done it before without issues" this doesn't make it legal and relying on a post on an Internet forum would be foolish indeed. It just shows that they weren't caught.
There are rumors that the rules are gong to be relaxed but until there's a definitive statement from the authorities I wouldn't risk it. The saving you potentially make isn't worth the risk of being prosecuted.
There will undoubtedly be numerous posts saying "I've done it before without issues" this doesn't make it legal and relying on a post on an Internet forum would be foolish indeed. It just shows that they weren't caught.
There are rumors that the rules are gong to be relaxed but until there's a definitive statement from the authorities I wouldn't risk it. The saving you potentially make isn't worth the risk of being prosecuted.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
FWIW I'd send it by USPS mail after speaking with the clerk at the US Post Office counter.
flying felix
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid that is incorrect, below is an extract from the ITAR regulations. I draw your attention to Part 121, The United States Munitions list to the ITAR Regulations, Category III, Ammunition/ Ordnance Sub Para (f)(3) as published by the State Department on 30 Aug 17 (my bold):
Category III—Ammunition/Ordnance
*(a) Ammunition/ordnance for the articles in Categories I and II of this section.
(b) Ammunition/ordnance handling equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles controlled in this category, such as, belting, linking, and de-linking equipment.
(c) Equipment and tooling specifically designed or modified for the production of defense articles controlled by this category.
(d) Components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles in this category:
*(1) Guidance and control components for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category;
*(2) Safing, arming and fuzing components (including target detection and localization devices) for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category; and
(3) All other components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.
(e) Technical data (as defined in §120.10 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in §120.9 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles described in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles described elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.
(f) The following explains and amplifies the terms used in this category and elsewhere in this subchapter:
(1) The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister rounds and submunitions therefor), boosters, firing components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for the defense articles controlled in this category.
(2) This category does not control cartridge and shell casings that, prior to export, have been rendered useless beyond the possibility of restoration for use as a cartridge or shell casing by means of heating, flame treatment, mangling, crushing, cutting or popping.
(3) Equipment and tooling in paragraph (c) of this category does not include equipment for hand-loading ammunition.
(4) The articles in this category include any end item, component, accessory, attachment, part, firmware, software, or system that has been designed or manufactured using technical data and defense services controlled by this category.
(5) The articles specifically designed or modified for military application controlled in this category include any article specifically developed, configured, or adapted for military application.
Shotgun cartridges are exempt in that you can export commercial quantities as opposed to home loading quantities without an export licence.
Surely item 1 (underlined) is more clearly applicable than item 3 (bold)?
I tried that - it got rejected and is still with a friend in the states ...
flying felix
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid not, Sub para (f) states that the lists below are an expansion of the description of the items described earlier. Sub para (c) is a "catch all" which includes everything associated with the manufacturing of ammunition.
Also Sub para (3) means that if you use a school ruler to measure case length it is also covered by ITAR.
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Eh? Are you saying that you believe the export of cases to be legal or illegal? I may have the wrong end of the stick.
The clause I underlined is IN sub para (f) and clearly states that cartridge cases ARE controlled, and is obviously the operative clause with reference to ammunition components.
It's quite obvious that a school ruler is not controlled by ITAR whatever it is used for. Sub para (3) has no such effect, I presume you're relying on classifying a ruler as being "associated equipment" "designed or modified" for the production of ammunition or defence equipment. It's possible that you refer to the lower clause (3), but that explicitly states that a ruler would not be covered.
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flying felix
Well-Known Member
The ITAR regulation covers EVERYTHING associated or used in the manufacturing of ammunition and as such you need an export licence to remove it from the USA. Two exceptions stated are:
1. Shotgun cartridges.
2. Parts and equipment for the home loading of ammunition.
So, as long as the quantities of the brass are not considered commercial quantities it is perfectly legal to export them from the USA without an ITAR export licence. The only person I know to have fallen foul for the exporting of brass was someone who tried shipping four 55 gallon oil drums filled with once fired pistol brass. As you can imagine there was no way that he could argue that, that amount was for home loading.
No, a ruler used in the measuring of the case length is classed as associated equipment:
(3) All other components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.
Stupid I know, but these regulations are written so that a prosecution can be obtained with very little physical evidence and you are down to arguing the item's intended purpose.
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There is a gaping dissonance between what the regulation you quoted says and the meaning you're attaching to it. It is both explicit that brass cases are covered by the regulation, and transparently clear that a ruler is not governed by it.
I cannot understand how you can read that "
The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases,"
and understand the opposite. Nor can I understand how you contend that a ruler is a component, part, accessory, attachment or associated equipment for the production of ammunition and/or is specifically designed or modified for the production of defense articles. It manifestly isn't. A ruler is no more covered by that wording than an ice cream is.
flying felix
Well-Known Member
I have constantly said that brass cases ARE covered by the regulations. You need an export licence unless it is for home loading. Likewise, if a ruler, screw or washer was used for the commercial manufacturing of ammunition it would require an export licence, because the regulations are so encompassing.
Paras (a) - (e) generally describes the items that are covered by the regulations under this category. Para (f) further expands on the descriptions of the items covered by the earlier sub paragraphs. Ensuring that ANY object that can be used in the manufacturing of ammunition is covered by the regulations. The two exemptions are then identified in the sub paras of (f).
I have not only spent my professional career following, writing and applying such regulations for the explosives industry, I've brought back 10s of thousands of brass cases back from the USA. Each and every time my baggage has been inspected at the departure airport, the only time I've had any trouble was when they detected traces of high explosives (which is a professional hazard).
jthyttin
Well-Known Member
I repeat, brass is not "equipment or tooling" for "hand-loading ammunition".
Reloading equipment, like reloading press, powder scale or reloading dies, are exempt and it does not matter whether you export them in commercial quantities or personal use.
As I said in my earlier post there will be statements from individuals who will quote the ITAR sections at you and tell you they haven't had an issue, some might proclaim themselves "experts" but they will not be the ones in court alongside you if it all goes wrong. Here's a section from ITAR that explicitly states cartridge cases are ITAR regulated.
[h=1]Category III—Ammunition/Ordnance[/h][FONT="]*(a) Ammunition/ordnance for the articles in Categories I and II of this section.[/FONT]
[FONT="](b) Ammunition/ordnance handling equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles controlled in this category, such as, belting, linking, and de-linking equipment.[/FONT]
[FONT="](c) Equipment and tooling specifically designed or modified for the production of defense articles controlled by this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](d) Components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles in this category:[/FONT]
[FONT="]*(1) Guidance and control components for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category;[/FONT]
[FONT="]*(2) Safing, arming and fuzing components (including target detection and localization devices) for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category; and[/FONT]
[FONT="](3) All other components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](e) Technical data (as defined in §120.10 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in §120.9 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles described in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles described elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.[/FONT]
[FONT="](f) The following explains and amplifies the terms used in this category and elsewhere in this subchapter:[/FONT]
[FONT="](1) The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister rounds and submunitions therefor), boosters, firing components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for the defense articles controlled in this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](2) This category does not control cartridge and shell casings that, prior to export, have been rendered useless beyond the possibility of restoration for use as a cartridge or shell casing by means of heating, flame treatment, mangling, crushing, cutting or popping.
If you still are unsure just try to order brass from a USA supplier e.g. ReloadingInternational.com
Ask yourself if those who sell for a living are stating you need a licence would you really be comfortable relying on an interpretation of "home loading" as your defense based on a statement on an internet forum from someone you don't know?Where is the definition in the ITAR of what "home loading is" and what quantities would be considered? 20 cases 100 500?
The only expert you need to worry about is the customs official who has been told ammunition components are controlled and you are in a heap of trouble. Yes you might eventually successfully win your argument but it won't be at the boarding gate it will be after being arrested and then possible court. A lot of hassle for a small saving on brass, if however you like prison food and male company then you've nothing to worry about.
Before ITAR I brought back brass and bullets and ordered directly from USA suppliers but once ITAR came in I stopped as pretty much every supplier I talked to said "No you'll need a licence"
[/FONT]
[h=1]Category III—Ammunition/Ordnance[/h][FONT="]*(a) Ammunition/ordnance for the articles in Categories I and II of this section.[/FONT]
[FONT="](b) Ammunition/ordnance handling equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles controlled in this category, such as, belting, linking, and de-linking equipment.[/FONT]
[FONT="](c) Equipment and tooling specifically designed or modified for the production of defense articles controlled by this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](d) Components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for the articles in this category:[/FONT]
[FONT="]*(1) Guidance and control components for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category;[/FONT]
[FONT="]*(2) Safing, arming and fuzing components (including target detection and localization devices) for the articles in paragraph (a) of this category; and[/FONT]
[FONT="](3) All other components, parts, accessories, attachments and associated equipment for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](e) Technical data (as defined in §120.10 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in §120.9 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles described in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles described elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.[/FONT]
[FONT="](f) The following explains and amplifies the terms used in this category and elsewhere in this subchapter:[/FONT]
[FONT="](1) The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister rounds and submunitions therefor), boosters, firing components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for the defense articles controlled in this category.[/FONT]
[FONT="](2) This category does not control cartridge and shell casings that, prior to export, have been rendered useless beyond the possibility of restoration for use as a cartridge or shell casing by means of heating, flame treatment, mangling, crushing, cutting or popping.
If you still are unsure just try to order brass from a USA supplier e.g. ReloadingInternational.com
Ask yourself if those who sell for a living are stating you need a licence would you really be comfortable relying on an interpretation of "home loading" as your defense based on a statement on an internet forum from someone you don't know?Where is the definition in the ITAR of what "home loading is" and what quantities would be considered? 20 cases 100 500?
The only expert you need to worry about is the customs official who has been told ammunition components are controlled and you are in a heap of trouble. Yes you might eventually successfully win your argument but it won't be at the boarding gate it will be after being arrested and then possible court. A lot of hassle for a small saving on brass, if however you like prison food and male company then you've nothing to worry about.
Before ITAR I brought back brass and bullets and ordered directly from USA suppliers but once ITAR came in I stopped as pretty much every supplier I talked to said "No you'll need a licence"
[/FONT]
flying felix
Well-Known Member
The reason many companies will not sell without an export licence is because the State Department have said that they will prosecute the retailer as well as the exporter if found to be contravening the regulations and they have taken the cautious option. It is the same for gun parts; you will find very few retailers who apply the $100.00 exemption to parts of firearms and instead say that they will not export or an export licence is required.
I do, however, agree that people need to read the WHOLE section of the ITAR regulations and make your own informed decision.
I do, however, agree that people need to read the WHOLE section of the ITAR regulations and make your own informed decision.
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Odders
Well-Known Member
I went to the effort of actually contacting the US State Department.
Here's their reply:
I'm still waiting for them to state whether this covers ammunition components, as IMO it doesn't.
Fired off another email tonight to remind them I've not had a reply in more than 6 months...
I am struggling to understand why anyone would risk it for such little saving. Even at a £1 a case that's cheep as chips it's not like you are going to save hundreds and hundreds of pound. And sending emails back and forth to a government department seems mad to I would like to think they have better things to do with there time seeming someone is pay tax to pay for ther time.
Odders
Well-Known Member
Why is attempting to clarify a legal point "mad"?
Do YOU know exactly what the law is relating to bringing certain items out of the US?
I take it you never question anything, always do exactly as you're told & just suck it up, no matter how ridiculous/unfair/discriminatory the situation?
IMO government departments should be constantly held to account due to their poor record of serving those who pay their salaries.
Some news on recent developments that might make a difference: Ammoland.
How many here knew that butt pads & sling swivels were restricted items?
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