So . . . .

[Roro]

A


I was with you on this until the emboldened.

There are still voters around who risked their life for this Country in the last war with Germany but still voted to stay in Europe. Wheather that stems from a desire to never see us revisit such horrors; a key driver of our joining the EEC, I don't honestly know but to suggest they are less patriotic for it is frankly unacceptable.

K

I have heard that red herring before, about the eu being the reason there has not been another war in europe. The reason was, after the last war Germany was literally a pile of rubble, the german people were shown what had gone on in the many death camps all over europe, the occupying powers often forcing the local populations to visit the camps. In addition they had started a war that claimed the lives of over 60 million people, the german people were simply aghast and ashamed of what they had done, or was done in their name. They had to suffer the aftermath, half the country living under the brutal reds, everything destroyed, no food, no supplies, massive reparations to pay, and to top it off being pariahs internationally.

 

[Roro]

All this ill feeling and bad will, divisions all over europe can be stopped, if the eu simply reverts to being a trade organisation and stops looking to turn the continent of europe into one big country with brussels as its capital. Go back to how it was when it suited everyone.

 

[B&W FOX]

All this ill feeling and bad will, divisions all over europe can be stopped, if the eu simply reverts to being a trade organisation and stops looking to turn the continent of europe into one big country with brussels as its capital. Go back to how it was when it suited everyone.

Tell that to the yellow jackets in France.
I'm not sure they will believe you either

 

[Chasey]

Our history, British history, has always been about prevent the domination of Western Europe by either the French or by those that speak the German languages...be they either Austrians, Prussians, Germans or Nazis...by withdrawal from the EU, by Brexit, we will hand on a platter the French and Germans that victory they have always wanted but never permanently achieved. Jean-Claude Juncker is a Luxembourger. Donald Tusk is a Pole. In each man's DNA will be a desperate hope, for the UK to stay in the UK to redress the otherwise European hegemony of France and/or Germany in Europe.

SERIOUSLY?

You are aware of the heritage of the UK Royal family right?

You are aware Hitler put a lot of effort into sorting out a Anglo German alliance?

Jesus we went to WW1 for the Treaty of London to protect our European Allies in Hungary??

WW2 we went to war to protect our European Allies in Poland due to our pledge of military support


After WWII Churchill was key in forming the Declaration of Union in 1940 and later went on to found the United Europe Movement in 1947

Churchill said a United States of Europe was our only hope for the future


‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’


I am sic and tired of people claiming this isn't what their grandad fought for, when in fact a united Europe was EXACTLY what their grandad fought for

 

[Roro]

SERIOUSLY?

You are aware of the heritage of the UK Royal family right?

You are aware Hitler put a lot of effort into sorting out a Anglo German alliance?

Jesus we went to WW1 for the Treaty of London to protect our European Allies in Hungary??

WW2 we went to war to protect our European Allies in Poland due to our pledge of military support


After WWII Churchill was key in forming the Declaration of Union in 1940 and later went on to found the United Europe Movement in 1947

Churchill said a United States of Europe was our only hope for the future


‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’


I am sic and tired of people claiming this isn't what their grandad fought for, when in fact a united Europe was EXACTLY what their grandad fought for

Yes but churchill wanted a union for mainland europe, not for the uk. How many times did the french refuse to allow the uk join the common market/ eec, for this very reason ?
Anyway now that the crunch time is approaching, for a european superstate, a lot of people in a lot of countries, really do not fancy being a citizen of europe rather than of france, germany, italy, where ever.

 

[milek]

Tell that to the yellow jackets in France.
I'm not sure they will believe you either

Agreed. And with us, (the equivalent of 19 other states) leaving very soon there will be more burden on the last few cash cows to prop up the superstate. Good luck with that. The EU responsible for stopping wars in Europe? they did a fine job in Yugoslavia.

 

[Olaf]

Oaf as I told you before we cannot get trade deals till we leave the EU

I agree, but the salient fact that you fail to understand- and it’s a historical reality- is that the UK can and has been negotiating deals. This is common knowledge. And they have not had any positive results. Not in two and a half years- not a single thing.
The UK has also submitted its WTO trading proposals to the WTO members and all were universally rejected by nearly every single WTO market that the UK had attempted to trade with, the USA being an example.
Kindest regards, Olaf

 

[Olaf]

Anyway now that the crunch time is approaching, for a european superstate, a lot of people in a lot of countries, really do not fancy being a citizen of europe rather than of france, germany, italy, where ever.[/QUOTE]


Exactly! Which is why you should be kean to have the right to be able to vote for your chosen MEP in the 2019 May 23rd elections , should the UK still be in a position to do so at that time.
Kindest regards, Olaf

 

[deeangeo]

SERIOUSLY?

You are aware of the heritage of the UK Royal family right? Saxe-Coburg after Hanoverians - German

You are aware Hitler put a lot of effort into sorting out a Anglo German alliance? Hitler did nothing and was fully compromised after marching into Czechoslovakia

Jesus we went to WW1 for the Treaty of London to protect our European Allies in Hungary?? A number of treaties were entered into by several countries.

WW2 we went to war to protect our European Allies in Poland due to our pledge of military support Indeed so


After WWII Churchill was key in forming the Declaration of Union in 1940 and later went on to found the United Europe Movement in 1947

Churchill said a United States of Europe was our only hope for the future Churchill to my knowledge has never implied anywhere that the UK should be part of a union of Europe, indeed quite the opposite.


‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’


I am sic and tired of people claiming this isn't what their grandad fought for, when in fact a united Europe was EXACTLY what their grandad fought for The greatest majority of public and armed forces by far at the time of WW2 only knew they were fighting to resist Nazi oppression and obtain the downfall of Hitlers Germany. Indeed virtually all UK citizens at that time were thoroughly cheesed off with having to go to war a second time in twenty years. There was a distinct dislike of anything German for quite a number of years following WW2.
None of this had anything to do with fighhting for a United Europe.

Quite apart from the above, this has nothing whatever to do with Brexit .. a modern day exit from an EU that wants to turn all member countries into a Federal States of Europe.
We joined the Common Market on a trade basis. Everything else, EEC then EU agreements and interference have become un-pallateable to many of the UK public.

 

[deeangeo]

Anyway now that the crunch time is approaching, for a european superstate, a lot of people in a lot of countries, really do not fancy being a citizen of europe rather than of france, germany, italy, where ever.

Exactly! Which is why you should be kean to have the right to be able to vote for your chosen MEP in the 2019 May 23rd elections , should the UK still be in a position to do so at that time.
Kindest regards, Olaf[/QUOTE]

Personally I'd be rather delighted if we weren't.

 

[Olaf]

Exactly! Which is why you should be kean to have the right to be able to vote for your chosen MEP in the 2019 May 23rd elections , should the UK still be in a position to do so at that time.
Kindest regards, Olaf

Personally I'd be rather delighted if we weren't.[/QUOTE]
Why’s that then ?
Kindest regards, Olaf

 

[tackb]

Absolutely not the case. The UKs got a very strong position in Europe as a member. well , not really or surely people would have voted to stay?
It’s one of the few members that have a very tailored membership as it stands. It was crafted over a very long period of time by some extremely excellent UK lawmakers so as to give us a very beneficial position , a position protected by law. The ECU ruling that the UK can cancel article 50 WITHOUT the EU members approval has given us a very powerful hand if we were to cancel the present mechanism. our most powerful hand , the one may refuses to play is to stop paying and leave , the eu has even admitted it will be a disaster for them if that happens, the eu has given us permission to cancel article 50 , permission ! and therein lies the reason leave won , we do not need or want permission from the eu to leave or to cancel our desire to leave we only need permission or approval if we wanted to join,thats how clubs work.
Kindest regards, Olaf

 

[User00035]

Anyway now that the crunch time is approaching, for a european superstate, a lot of people in a lot of countries, really do not fancy being a citizen of europe rather than of france, germany, italy, where ever.

This is the fatal flaw at the heart of the European project. No matter how deep the state of denial among militant Europhiles, The Project was never about trade. It was always a generational process aimed at creating by incremental stealth an artificial superstate ruled by an unelected neo-Roman senate that would bypass democracy and govern without the inconvenience of electorates making the "wrong" choices which, the ideologues believe, led to all the wars and disasters in Europe in the past (in fact, Europe's wars were started by politicians not electorates). Nowadays they don't even bother to deny it any more. they feel (wrongly) that the train is now unstoppable.

What they fail to grasp is that no empire in history (and the European Project is irrefutably and demonstrably an imperialist construct) has ever survived for long without the consent of the people under its rule.
The peoples of Europe might enjoy being able to wander where they like across the continent. They will happily take the bribes in grants and handouts paid for by British and German taxpayers, and they'll merrily max out the national credit card on the "cheap" debt facilitated by Europe's cardboard currency. But they will never submit to the dissolution of their various national identities. There is no European collective identity. There never has been and one will never be legislated into existence. No member state has ever joined to be "European"; they joined because they thought doing so was in their NATIONAL interest.

 

[sikamalc]

This is the fatal flaw at the heart of the European project. No matter how deep the state of denial among militant Europhiles, The Project was never about trade. It was always a generational process aimed at creating by incremental stealth an artificial superstate ruled by an unelected neo-Roman senate that would bypass democracy and govern without the inconvenience of electorates making the "wrong" choices which, the ideologues believe, led to all the wars and disasters in Europe in the past (in fact, Europe's wars were started by politicians not electorates). Nowadays they don't even bother to deny it any more. they feel (wrongly) that the train is now unstoppable.

What they fail to grasp is that no empire in history (and the European Project is irrefutably and demonstrably an imperialist construct) has ever survived for long without the consent of the people under its rule.
The peoples of Europe might enjoy being able to wander where they like across the continent. They will happily take the bribes in grants and handouts paid for by British and German taxpayers, and they'll merrily max out the national credit card on the "cheap" debt facilitated by Europe's cardboard currency. But they will never submit to the dissolution of their various national identities. There is no European collective identity. There never has been and one will never be legislated into existence. No member state has ever joined to be "European"; they joined because they thought doing so was in their NATIONAL interest.

Agree 100%.

 

[Jon Smith]

This is the fatal flaw at the heart of the European project. No matter how deep the state of denial among militant Europhiles, The Project was never about trade. It was always a generational process aimed at creating by incremental stealth an artificial superstate ruled by an unelected neo-Roman senate that would bypass democracy and govern without the inconvenience of electorates making the "wrong" choices which, the ideologues believe, led to all the wars and disasters in Europe in the past (in fact, Europe's wars were started by politicians not electorates). Nowadays they don't even bother to deny it any more. they feel (wrongly) that the train is now unstoppable.

What they fail to grasp is that no empire in history (and the European Project is irrefutably and demonstrably an imperialist construct) has ever survived for long without the consent of the people under its rule.
The peoples of Europe might enjoy being able to wander where they like across the continent. They will happily take the bribes in grants and handouts paid for by British and German taxpayers, and they'll merrily max out the national credit card on the "cheap" debt facilitated by Europe's cardboard currency. But they will never submit to the dissolution of their various national identities. There is no European collective identity. There never has been and one will never be legislated into existence. No member state has ever joined to be "European"; they joined because they thought doing so was in their NATIONAL interest.

Absofeckinglutely

 

[Olaf]

This is the fatal flaw at the heart of the European project. No matter how deep the state of denial among militant Europhiles, The Project was never about trade. It was always a generational process aimed at creating by incremental stealth an artificial superstate ruled by an unelected neo-Roman senate that would bypass democracy and govern without the inconvenience of electorates making the "wrong" choices which, the ideologues believe, led to all the wars and disasters in Europe in the past (in fact, Europe's wars were started by politicians not electorates). Nowadays they don't even bother to deny it any more. they feel (wrongly) that the train is now unstoppable.

What they fail to grasp is that no empire in history (and the European Project is irrefutably and demonstrably an imperialist construct) has ever survived for long without the consent of the people under its rule.
The peoples of Europe might enjoy being able to wander where they like across the continent. They will happily take the bribes in grants and handouts paid for by British and German taxpayers, and they'll merrily max out the national credit card on the "cheap" debt facilitated by Europe's cardboard currency. But they will never submit to the dissolution of their various national identities. There is no European collective identity. There never has been and one will never be legislated into existence. No member state has ever joined to be "European"; they joined because they thought doing so was in their NATIONAL interest.

So..... which facts are you basing your interesting conspiracy theories on then ?
Which EU law is it that is hindering you so much that you can’t wait to be able to be rid of it ?
Kindest regards, Olaf

 

[Pine Marten]

There is no European collective identity. There never has been and one will never be legislated into existence. No member state has ever joined to be "European"; they joined because they thought doing so was in their NATIONAL interest.

I've been studiously avoiding this thread, but I think I have to point out that:
1. Of course countries join the EU for their own interests, but that doesn't mean it isn't also in the wider European interest. The two can go together.
2. Well sure, not everyone feels European, but lots of people do, and again, it's not mutually exclusive with national or regional identities. Certainly for me, European citizenship is important, as are my French and British citizenships. And they all coexist quite happily. Identity is a many layered thing.

 

[tackb]

So..... which facts are you basing your interesting conspiracy theories on then ?
Which EU law is it that is hindering you so much that you can’t wait to be able to be rid of it ?
Kindest regards, Olaf

how about the referendum that we voted out in , that kind of backs him up don't you think ?
and I read it a couple of times and nothing was mentioned about laws that I can see ?

you want to remain , many others (a majority in actual fact) voted leave , I get that you don't like that you lost but honestly just stop with the misdirection , he never mentioned laws

 

[sikamalc]

Yep we live in free democratic country with the right to vote. THE MAJORITY OF US VOTED OUT, that is the wish of the majority of us, that's what we voted for. So no matter how much you kick and scream that is what we asked for, without any excuses buts, ifs, maybe.

Live with it and lets move on shall we as this thread is now past its sell by date, much like the EU.

 

[finnbear270]