Deer calibers and bullets, Meat loss?

captdavid

Well-Known Member
First I believe that in the taking of any game animal, one should use enough gun. I think that Bob Hagel an American gun writer has it right. He stated: "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." Along those same lines the right bullet should be used. Target bullets should be used for targets, varmint bullets for varmints and game bullets for game. These can be divided between deer bullets (80-400lbs) and big game bullets(400lb+). These are my general statements. Most of the deer bullets .from 120 to180grains with a muzzle velocity under 3000fps are made for deer sized game. At least those made for the US market are. One must be a little more careful choosing bullets at over 3000fps. As you might notice, this leaves out the 6mm/243 calibers and most 25s. Imagine, because of or beyond, your control you shot low and blew off the leg of a fallow, red or, god forbid a red. As it runs straight away from you, think Bob Hagel, do you really feel comfortable making that ''Texas-heart-shot?"

I believe you guys:british:worry a little to much about meat damage. Maybe one should for deer that are to be sold, but not those for ones own consumption. I normally take around five game animal per year. About half and half, pigs and deer. When I shoot hogs, is usually right at dark or after. We usually hunt 2-3 hours after dark. A hogs boiler room is farther forward than a deer's. When I shoot, I try to hit the area between the shoulders. If I destroy one, or both shoulders. I still get my hog, and there is salvageable meat on the shoulder. A deer is easier to kill without loosing much meat. I aim between 1/3 and 1/2 way up, right along a line continuing along the front leg. This shot will destroy very little meat. Also, that aim point is the center of a target that is deadly. Their are exceptions but a deer hit within the area, about the size of a basket ball, will be down within seconds. One might hit a shoulder, but what does a shoulder weigh 3-5lbs, half of which is bone, just how much meat might one loose? The good thing is by hitting the shoulder, the deer doesn't go far. If I shoot a dear after sundown, which is rare. (I believe that is an hour before your legal hunting ends) or if the brush is extremely thick I don't worry about the shoulders. Trying to save a little meat is not worth loosing a whole deer. I generally pass on those shots. On a personal note I would rather eat a neck pot roast. One last thing, don't expect a blood trail. there are too many variables. Do expect the inside to be mush. capt david
 
You're always going to get SOME meat damage and some would argue that there is an inverse correlation between carcass damage and rates of lost deer - If you put a whacking great hole in it then it aint gonna go far!

I do think a lot of the complaints about meat damage come from people using the wrong sort of bullets - Take a ballistic tip and run it over 3000ft/s and you will get a lot of carcass damage, end of story. The expansion is explosive with those sorts of bullets and the speed makes it even worse.

Honestly some of the worst carcass damage I've seen has been with a .243 and (I think) Nosler ballistic tips. The front leg was blown to pieces and just about hanging off, and there was about a 10" wide area under the bullet strike that was all mushy and bubbly. That was on a roe buck.

Conversely I've shot roe bucks with a standard cup and core lead bullet out of a .300WM and it just pokes a hole right through them.

My two main hunting rifles are both fast calibers - .300WM and .25-06. But with a normal cup and core bullet they are just fine and dont do a huge amount of damage, certainly no more than my .308 did. I do also have a .45-70 as of last weekend but as yet I havent used it in anger so I have no idea what the damage is like.

If you are planning to bin what you shoot then use a small, light, rapidly expanding bullet at very high speeds - It will blow the target to bits and ensure a humane kill.

If you're planning to eat what you shoot then you're better off with a slower, heavier bullet which doesnt expand as fast.
 
Or stick to one calibre ,one bullet and get good with it .Overthink your shooting and the results will pay .
I’ve used 243 for years on everything ,100gr soft nose win xxx.All this talk of different calibres for different deer is shite from people with too much money and time .
Pick a calibre and get good with it.
 
Or stick to one calibre ,one bullet and get good with it .Overthink your shooting and the results will pay .
I’ve used 243 for years on everything ,100gr soft nose win xxx.All this talk of different calibres for different deer is shite from people with too much money and time .
Pick a calibre and get good with it.

So are you saying you honestly believe that the same bullet is appropriate for say a 15kg Muntjac and a 150kg Red stag?

One calibre possibly, but not one load.
If that was the case I am damn sure the Police would use it as an excuse to only allow one calibre.
 
When I first started out last year, various people told me get 2 rifles, 1 for fox and smaller deer and 1 for bigger deer, so I went for .222 and .308, I kept thinking I should just get a .243 or 6.5 but went with the 2 rifles instead, the .222 hasn't left the cabinet, I come across roe as frequently as I do muntjac so I use the .308, with 150gr Hornady, meat damage seems to be minimal, but if I loose a little on the shoulders I'm not too worried, I ate 95% of what I shoot.

One of these days I'll chop both rifles in and just have one instead, I hate having guns sat in the cabinet doing nothing
 
When I first started out last year, various people told me get 2 rifles, 1 for fox and smaller deer and 1 for bigger deer, so I went for .222 and .308, I kept thinking I should just get a .243 or 6.5 but went with the 2 rifles instead, the .222 hasn't left the cabinet, I come across roe as frequently as I do muntjac so I use the .308, with 150gr Hornady, meat damage seems to be minimal, but if I loose a little on the shoulders I'm not too worried, I ate 95% of what I shoot.

One of these days I'll chop both rifles in and just have one instead, I hate having guns sat in the cabinet doing nothing
I suppose it depends on if you do much foxing or other vermin. I would rather feed my 222 at 36p a pop than the 243 at 65p, or even more for the 270. The other advantage is weight saving, my CZ527 is a lot lighter than the 550. Makes a difference if you’re walking a long way.
The Idea of being intimately acquainted with just one rifle is a nice idea. But I have never found changing rifle affects my ability to shoot each accurately.
 
Shooting around 15-20 per month for the customers' table, with a .243 and 100gr driven not so hot, thus keeping meat damage to a minimum which improves the margin, but of course others will use and prefer according to their needs.
Used to using old 1oz impax for the pheasants etc too, but that was just my personal preference, dead is dead, and if you aren't sure, don't press or squeeze...
 
You're always going to get SOME meat damage and some would argue that there is an inverse correlation between carcass damage and rates of lost deer - If you put a whacking great hole in it then it aint gonna go far!

I do think a lot of the complaints about meat damage come from people using the wrong sort of bullets - Take a ballistic tip and run it over 3000ft/s and you will get a lot of carcass damage, end of story. The expansion is explosive with those sorts of bullets and the speed makes it even worse.

Honestly some of the worst carcass damage I've seen has been with a .243 and (I think) Nosler ballistic tips. The front leg was blown to pieces and just about hanging off, and there was about a 10" wide area under the bullet strike that was all mushy and bubbly. That was on a roe buck.

Conversely I've shot roe bucks with a standard cup and core lead bullet out of a .300WM and it just pokes a hole right through them.

My two main hunting rifles are both fast calibers - .300WM and .25-06. But with a normal cup and core bullet they are just fine and dont do a huge amount of damage, certainly no more than my .308 did. I do also have a .45-70 as of last weekend but as yet I havent used it in anger so I have no idea what the damage is like.

If you are planning to bin what you shoot then use a small, light, rapidly expanding bullet at very high speeds - It will blow the target to bits and ensure a humane kill.

If you're planning to eat what you shoot then you're better off with a slower, heavier bullet which doesnt expand as fast.

I would myself believe that you will get less meat damage with the 45-70 than the other two calibres. I used to have a 25-06 but it did an awful lot of damage using soft points. Two days ago I skinned a deer shot with a 25-06 using ballistic tips. It was at an oblique angle and although the bullet entered one third up behind the front leg it exited smashing the back leg bone on the opposite side. Not only this but I removed part of the bullet from the opposite front leg and a large piece from just under the skin above the spine. This last piece had gone between the nodules of the spine through the flesh without touching bone. That animal ran for 150 yards. It just goes to show what can happen with super fast rounds
 
I use my 6.5x55 for everything muntjac-red

That doesn’t answer my question though. I know of professional stalkers who know they are likely to need the dog. When their client turns up with a 30 cal and their usual bullets for Muntjac.
Can you honestly say that one bullet is best for two animals that one is ten times the weight of the other.
 
I have shot red fallow roe and muntjac with Hornady SST 140gr bullets. Neck shoot the muntjac and body the rest.

I don’t vary my bullets.

I’m competent with my set up and the bullets I put through it.

When you go stalking you do not load the rifle with different bullets just in case a different size deer comes out.....do you?

The woods I have stalked in hold roe, fallow and muntjac. I can not unload the rifle and change my bullets to shoot the different deer......can I?

I load my magazine at the start and know that whatever presents itself is dead.

You obviously have to take into consideration distances and shot placement etc. I personally never head shoot though (my choice).

Cheers
 
Speaking of the 'wrong type' of bullets and shot placement:

A friend in the States has a company which supplied an initial run of 4 million special non-penetrating training rounds which leave a mark on the target or clothing to the US military for 'evaluation' prior to securing a large contract with said defence establishment, and which incidentally are now also used in other countries elsewhere around the world these days in military training scenarios by many military forces; he told me that once during the evaluation time the US military conducted a 'good guys v bad guys' close combat firefight scenario, and in the three minute duration of the exercise a total of over 11,000 rounds were expended between both sides of the 'combatants'; of the 11,000 rounds expended, a salutary five rounds only would have resulted in fatalities had they been the 'right'/'wrong' type, i.e. the real deal.

Scary, or scary?
 
That doesn’t answer my question though. I know of professional stalkers who know they are likely to need the dog. When their client turns up with a 30 cal and their usual bullets for Muntjac.
Can you honestly say that one bullet is best for two animals that one is ten times the weight of the other.

I shoot 180g partitions in 30-06 from dainty roe and fox to large red stags, no difference in performance and sure as sh1t don’t need a dog for small species!
Same with 7x57 in 140g or 160g partitions
 
I am a huge fan of Partitions. and it was all I used in my 7x57 150grn and 30-06 165grn, if you have something similar do that all you have to worry about is May and Corbin! The problem is , as you said, velocity rises to 3000+. Some cup and core bullets, especially polytip ones just cant take that. I am now trying some 175grn Round Nose, that were designed for the 2450 velocities that I will shoot them. They go in, open up, make mush and exit at around 100yds. Ill use them in my pig and close deer blinds.

Sonicdmb I would use 150 partitions for your tiny deer. They are designed to open fast yet retain the rear part. I have shot coyotes, about the same size, and they opened created mush and exited, leaving a one inch hole. Ive also killed 150lb pigs, breaking a shoulder and exiting. I've also have had them pass through on several large red hinds.
capt david
 
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PKL great minds think alike , except mine is a little greater :D as I use 150 7mm and 165 30-06 Partitions. The largest thing that I might ever hunt is another cow elk or cull red stag. both weighing in the 400lb range.
 
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