That's the same velocity as I am netting with near top load of RS60 in 6.5 creedmoor with the same bullet
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- Thread starter Blobby159
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That's the same velocity as I am netting with near top load of RS60 in 6.5 creedmoor with the same bullet
Wow!... That must be a pretty warm load my friend!? My limited tested RS60 load in my Swede is 47.0gr under the 123gr Scenar and even THAT feels "pokey" and is giving me just a whisker over the 3,000 fps mark. Your Creedmoor case is a little smaller in capacity than the Swede so I am assuming same powder loads would give somewhat higher pressures.. That MAY not be an accurate assessment, but I would think it is accurate enough to hold water....
So far I rate RS60 and will be giving it a decent set of test rounds as soon as the weather gives us a period of high pressure and little or no breezes.. Am thinking of trying RS62 too, though top loads seem to give similar velocities to the one we two are using, and one has to run in MORE of that slower powder into our cases, so not as economical I think...
Good luck with your loadings!
ATB ...... and shoot safely
Yes, the Creedmoor is designed to run at higher pressures, it near Nosler’s Max load with RL17, 43.3 or thereabouts from memory.
Yes, I understand that '25 Sharps' though cos my Swede is in a modern heavy barrelled rifle (Tikka t3) I load it quite a bit above a lot of those - particularly State-side careful loadings designed for the - old military Mauser rifles that get much of their velocity from their near 30" barrels... However, I was informed (on here I think?) that RS6O was equivalent to RL16 in the burn rate tables?? Not a big difference, but at top loadings, significant enough for possible troubles?!.. How can we discover who's "Equivalence" is more correct my friend??
Regards,
Blobby159
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
Rs60 = RL17 same powder, both just marketing names.
Laurie will probably insert the actual name and code n145?, but I have it in my head that the same powder is used by RUAG to load the latest production military 7.5x55 for the Swiss government. If that’s right it’s probably from Laurie as well!
PS with the same powder in a Sako case I am getting 3000 FPS with a 129 gr Accubond LR, according to QL and what I’m seeing on the cases still some room to go, however this powder is quite temperature sensitive from what I’ve seen so won’t be chasing any further
Nosler’s swede load data is for modern actions not historic rifles.
Here is Edgar Brothers' latest listings (from its website) for the Alliant powders that it distributes:
Alliant
As far as I can see, the entire US range is now covered except 1) Re17; 2) The 'Power-Pro' quartet of 'spherical' powders, ie Power-Pro 1200-R, 2000-MR, 4000-MR, and Varmint.
Re17 IS the same thing as Nitrochemie's Reload Swiss RS60 (factory production code: EI-Niesen 145. EI means it has the 'EI' advanced infused deterrents technology and all Niesen code products have infused nitroglycerin, ie are 'high-energy' propellants.) It is also the same product that was sold in the UK for a couple of years under the 'Elcho-17' name, this imported in bulk from the Swiss factory and bottled in 1kg lots in-country.
The Power-Pro propellants are all ball type powders and are manufactured by General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. in Florida which also makes all Winchester brand propellants and all of those Hodgdon grades described as 'spherical'. I assume they aren't Reach compliant (like all but the newest St Marks powders). In any event, they've never been imported into Europe AFAIK.
I have often seen it said that the factory gate bulk version of EI-N145 is loaded into Swiss GP11 7.5X55mm ball cartridges, but cannot confirm if that's so. In any event, it is a very good match.
Its single-based non-EI stablemate - WLP 225, sold as Reload Swiss RS62 - was originally developed by Nitrochemie for standard 270 Win loadings in factory ammunition.
Alliant Reloder 16 is not linked to these powders in any way originating from another company - Eurenco Bofors in Sweden - and using different technologies. Like Re17/RS60 (and all Bofors manufactured Alliant or Norma powders) it is double-based and is one of three new grades with Bofors' 'TZ' temperature control technology - which allegedly really works making Re16 as temperature unaffected as its main rival in the USA, Hodgdon H4350. H4350, Re16, RS62, and Re17/RS60 fall withing the same overall burning rate bracket and share applications. They aren't interchangeable though and the proper loads data-set must be used and loads re-worked up from scratch if a change is made.
6.5X55mm MAPs are a tricky subject open to various interpretations. US SAAMI for 6.5X55 is 46,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure - the old copper crusher pressure measuring system) which equates to around 50,000 psi using modern systems. CIP for the 6.5X55mm SE is 3,800 bar / 55,114 psi. 'SE' is the key factor with it denoting the cartridge's use in modern rifles, and is also that applied by Vihtavuori in its data listed as '6.5X55mm SKAN', lower loads provided for in a separate '6.5X55mm Swedish Mauser' table are milder and to be used in old military rifles in good condition.
Some US loading data-sets specifically mention 'SE' in the table heading so should conform to the higher CIP MAP value. Others say something to the effect of 'for modern rifles in good condition'. Others say damn all. What pressures any of them actually work to in either handloading data or factory loaded ammunition is pretty opaque and with US companies' concern over injured user litigation they probably play safe. Certainly, Norma ammunition tends to be loaded significantly more heavily than most US equivalents.
Even with full CIP SE PMax, a full (60-62,000 psi)-pressure 6.5 Creedmoor load will match the 6.5X55's performance. Many factory Creedmoor loads which are usually kept down to 58,000 psi will produce a little less velocity than the hottest 6.5X55 equivalents. In real life there is nothing significant between 6.5X47 Lapua, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5X55SE performance and potentials. There are many reasons for preferring one over another, but performance isn't one of them. Because of its significant case taper and relatively shallow shoulder angle, the 6.5X55 can be 'improved' significantly. Traditionally this was the 'AI' version, but there are a number of more recent variations such as the 6.5X55 GWI which produce better performance than the other three cartridges can offer. The 260AI improved version is less fashionable these days but won't be far behind the GWI etc and this pair would then outperform the 6.5X47mm Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor. This is academic to most users though and certainly to British stalkers.
Alliant
As far as I can see, the entire US range is now covered except 1) Re17; 2) The 'Power-Pro' quartet of 'spherical' powders, ie Power-Pro 1200-R, 2000-MR, 4000-MR, and Varmint.
Re17 IS the same thing as Nitrochemie's Reload Swiss RS60 (factory production code: EI-Niesen 145. EI means it has the 'EI' advanced infused deterrents technology and all Niesen code products have infused nitroglycerin, ie are 'high-energy' propellants.) It is also the same product that was sold in the UK for a couple of years under the 'Elcho-17' name, this imported in bulk from the Swiss factory and bottled in 1kg lots in-country.
The Power-Pro propellants are all ball type powders and are manufactured by General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. in Florida which also makes all Winchester brand propellants and all of those Hodgdon grades described as 'spherical'. I assume they aren't Reach compliant (like all but the newest St Marks powders). In any event, they've never been imported into Europe AFAIK.
I have often seen it said that the factory gate bulk version of EI-N145 is loaded into Swiss GP11 7.5X55mm ball cartridges, but cannot confirm if that's so. In any event, it is a very good match.
Its single-based non-EI stablemate - WLP 225, sold as Reload Swiss RS62 - was originally developed by Nitrochemie for standard 270 Win loadings in factory ammunition.
Alliant Reloder 16 is not linked to these powders in any way originating from another company - Eurenco Bofors in Sweden - and using different technologies. Like Re17/RS60 (and all Bofors manufactured Alliant or Norma powders) it is double-based and is one of three new grades with Bofors' 'TZ' temperature control technology - which allegedly really works making Re16 as temperature unaffected as its main rival in the USA, Hodgdon H4350. H4350, Re16, RS62, and Re17/RS60 fall withing the same overall burning rate bracket and share applications. They aren't interchangeable though and the proper loads data-set must be used and loads re-worked up from scratch if a change is made.
6.5X55mm MAPs are a tricky subject open to various interpretations. US SAAMI for 6.5X55 is 46,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure - the old copper crusher pressure measuring system) which equates to around 50,000 psi using modern systems. CIP for the 6.5X55mm SE is 3,800 bar / 55,114 psi. 'SE' is the key factor with it denoting the cartridge's use in modern rifles, and is also that applied by Vihtavuori in its data listed as '6.5X55mm SKAN', lower loads provided for in a separate '6.5X55mm Swedish Mauser' table are milder and to be used in old military rifles in good condition.
Some US loading data-sets specifically mention 'SE' in the table heading so should conform to the higher CIP MAP value. Others say something to the effect of 'for modern rifles in good condition'. Others say damn all. What pressures any of them actually work to in either handloading data or factory loaded ammunition is pretty opaque and with US companies' concern over injured user litigation they probably play safe. Certainly, Norma ammunition tends to be loaded significantly more heavily than most US equivalents.
Even with full CIP SE PMax, a full (60-62,000 psi)-pressure 6.5 Creedmoor load will match the 6.5X55's performance. Many factory Creedmoor loads which are usually kept down to 58,000 psi will produce a little less velocity than the hottest 6.5X55 equivalents. In real life there is nothing significant between 6.5X47 Lapua, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5X55SE performance and potentials. There are many reasons for preferring one over another, but performance isn't one of them. Because of its significant case taper and relatively shallow shoulder angle, the 6.5X55 can be 'improved' significantly. Traditionally this was the 'AI' version, but there are a number of more recent variations such as the 6.5X55 GWI which produce better performance than the other three cartridges can offer. The 260AI improved version is less fashionable these days but won't be far behind the GWI etc and this pair would then outperform the 6.5X47mm Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor. This is academic to most users though and certainly to British stalkers.
All good information 'Laurie'.. Thank you! Also, I have been loading my 6.5x55 to SE levels if and when I can find such, and even exceeding THE.SE levels slightly of occasion without problems in my Tikka t3 'Sporter' heavy barrelled rifle. Haven't heard of this "GWI" version till now and your mention, but must say it has tweaked my interest slightly...
Kind Regards,
Blobby159
Kind Regards,
Blobby159
There is a whole raft of modern improved 6.5X55s which see some use in the USA, but I've not heard of being in use here. Some small differences in upper case-body/taper dimensions aside, the main difference as best I can see between the AI and the GWI is shoulder angle - 40 and 30-degree respectively. Kelblys has adopted the GWI and will build competition rifles in it. Fans of the GWI and other 'improved' versions claim it takes 6.5X55 velocities up into those possible from the 6.5-284 and the next 'accuracy node' higher than the base version (ie 2,900s v 2,800s with 140s in a 30-inch barrel), offer superb accuracy and do this with better barrel life than the 6.5-284.
To achieve the claimed performance, pressures must be similar to those for equivalent modern cartridges, ie around the 60,000 psi mark.
To achieve the claimed performance, pressures must be similar to those for equivalent modern cartridges, ie around the 60,000 psi mark.
Thank you AGAIN for this FURTHER most interesting and informative post 'Laurie'... Kelbly's it is for me then!!.. I DID know (had read this online in some American forum) that the 6.5x55 Swede Improved could most times match the bigger cased 6.5x284, and that the all important barrel life was better - sonehow - but had honestly forgotten I had read that till you reminded me here.
What I do NOT understand is that with the same bore and bullets and presumably the same or closely similar powder loads and pushing pressures, how this yet translates into somewhat longer bore life??
This kind of practical physics intrigues me so I am wondering if you are able to explain (in as basic simple English as possible?) how this apparent confusion comes to pass...? No worries if not Laurie, you are yet "The Man" in my reloading book!
Kind Regards,
Blobby159
This claim (of enhanced barrel life) is pretty common with recent 'improvements' to many cartridges. Personally, I take much of it with a pinch of salt. Having said that, the 6.5-284 actually has a bit more case capacity and burns a bit more powder than ideal to achieve any particular velocity. If you can do it with a smaller cartridge at the same pressure and use cooler burning powders, barrel life should be enhanced a bit. But a 60,000 psi 6.5X55 IMP running at 6.5-284 MVs is going to burn up barrels in half the time of a <50,000 standard 'Swedish' loading, and give significantly reduced barrel life compared to a 55,000 psi SKAN/SE load all other things being equal. All other things being equal includes propellant choice - a mildish 6.5-284 Viht N165 loading might give better barrel life than a similar performance 6.5X55 IMP running on full pressure loads of N550/N560/RS60.
Some 'improvements' probably do give better life over the parent design unless pressures are ramped up. The 6mm Super LR variation of the 243 Win is a big shape improvement over the standard cartridge for instance. 243 Win to 6SLR is accomplished by simply running a 243 case into the SLR sizer die. It pushes the shoulder back and reforms it from a 20 degree angle to 30 whilst also making the neck considerably longer - in practice it grafts the 6XC neck and shoulder form onto a 243 case. There is no capacity 'improvement', in fact a small reduction. The sharper shoulder and long neck is known to reduce contact between the most erosive mass of burning powder kernels and gasses at the case-mouth and the barrel throat, so should enhance life. Again, all other things being equal. But the 6.5X55 has a long neck to start with and a sharper (30 or 40-degree) shoulder might only provide marginal addition protection ..... or then again, maybe it does make a real difference, but I remain rather sceptical.
The one thing that 'traditional' blown-out case body IMPs like the AI and GWI definitely offer is near freedom from case trimming.
Some 'improvements' probably do give better life over the parent design unless pressures are ramped up. The 6mm Super LR variation of the 243 Win is a big shape improvement over the standard cartridge for instance. 243 Win to 6SLR is accomplished by simply running a 243 case into the SLR sizer die. It pushes the shoulder back and reforms it from a 20 degree angle to 30 whilst also making the neck considerably longer - in practice it grafts the 6XC neck and shoulder form onto a 243 case. There is no capacity 'improvement', in fact a small reduction. The sharper shoulder and long neck is known to reduce contact between the most erosive mass of burning powder kernels and gasses at the case-mouth and the barrel throat, so should enhance life. Again, all other things being equal. But the 6.5X55 has a long neck to start with and a sharper (30 or 40-degree) shoulder might only provide marginal addition protection ..... or then again, maybe it does make a real difference, but I remain rather sceptical.
The one thing that 'traditional' blown-out case body IMPs like the AI and GWI definitely offer is near freedom from case trimming.
You are making the conversion of my 'standard' 6.5x55 SE to an improved design even MORE certain with your sensible critique of the blown out shoulder & case taper reduction info here 'Laurie'.. Thank you once again for your understandable and yet very knowledgeable responses my friend!! I am indebted! ......
Most Sincerely
Blobby159
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