Variations that don't get dealt with - inefficiency or conspiracy??

An update for those who are interested

After 15 weeks of no action from D & C licensing despite several phone calls and a couple of emails, I contacted BASC firearms Dept for advice

They offered to investigate on my behalf

I told them I'd try one more time and then come back to them if necessary

Finally I lost patience and asked BASC to intercede on my behalf

I asked BASC on Thursday last week, got a call from them Friday morning to tell me that D & C would sort it

Got my cert today with everything that I wanted

I still suspect that they (D & C) had no intention of granting my variation and were happy to sit on it indefinitely

Many thanks to BASC, without whom I suspect that I'd have waited until hell froze over
 
An update for those who are interested

After 15 weeks of no action from D & C licensing despite several phone calls and a couple of emails, I contacted BASC firearms Dept for advice

They offered to investigate on my behalf

I told them I'd try one more time and then come back to them if necessary

Finally I lost patience and asked BASC to intercede on my behalf

I asked BASC on Thursday last week, got a call from them Friday morning to tell me that D & C would sort it

Got my cert today with everything that I wanted

I still suspect that they (D & C) had no intention of granting my variation and were happy to sit on it indefinitely

Many thanks to BASC, without whom I suspect that I'd have waited until hell froze over
Fabulous! Great outcome. Also, well-done BASC.
 
Yup - well done BASC

The guy from their firearms dept warned me to read my cert very carefully

He was not sure that i'd get all I wanted and thought that perhaps they would play games with the wording

In the end it was as I asked

Curiously the 9.3 has been conditioned for - and I quote ...

''vermin, including fox, and ground game/deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot''

Not sure I'll be shooting fox with it :-|

It is also cleared for target shooting on home office approved ranges (at least those that allow the caliber) - I can download to stay below the 4500 joule threshold for HME
 
Yup - well done BASC

The guy from their firearms dept warned me to read my cert very carefully

He was not sure that i'd get all I wanted and thought that perhaps they would play games with the wording

In the end it was as I asked

Curiously the 9.3 has been conditioned for - and I quote ...

''vermin, including fox, and ground game/deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot''

Not sure I'll be shooting fox with it :-|

It is also cleared for target shooting on home office approved ranges (at least those that allow the caliber) - I can download to stay below the 4500 joule threshold for HME

Is the 9.3 conditioned separately or is included with others under “The firearms and ammunition shall be .........”?
 
No specific mention of the 9.3

Just...

The firearms and ammunition, except .22RF Long Barrel Pistol and ammunition, shall be .........

I also got 800 rounds as an allocation
 
Police Scotland are saying just now a one for one variation will be done in a week, but if you want to change calibre it's a standard 16 weeks.

I phoned the glasgow office and asked them if i could add 6.5 Creedmore while I still had .308 slot available. I explained that the 6.5 was for the range and I hadn't bought the .308 for deer yet. They told me to be there in an hours time and it would be ready for me. True to their word it was ready for me walking in. I truly can't fault the girls in the Glasgow office. They have always been very very quick. Even with my 14yr old sons when his Doctor was being a pain with that daft form.
 
No specific mention of the 9.3

Just...

The firearms and ammunition, except .22RF Long Barrel Pistol and ammunition, shall be .........

I also got 800 rounds as an allocation

Standard D&C condition to cover all rifles, moderators, and ammunition on an FAC then. :thumb:
 
An update for those who are interested

After 15 weeks of no action from D & C licensing despite several phone calls and a couple of emails, I contacted BASC firearms Dept for advice

They offered to investigate on my behalf

I told them I'd try one more time and then come back to them if necessary

Finally I lost patience and asked BASC to intercede on my behalf

I asked BASC on Thursday last week, got a call from them Friday morning to tell me that D & C would sort it

Got my cert today with everything that I wanted

I still suspect that they (D & C) had no intention of granting my variation and were happy to sit on it indefinitely

Many thanks to BASC, without whom I suspect that I'd have waited until hell froze over

My .375 variation has endured an epic and unduly impeded path through D&C licencing since October 2018. Per my post #40, I put this down to new staffing and extra work load on D&C as a function of the addition of Dorset to their jurisdiction. I am now tending to agree with bowji john: there seems to be a desire to delay processing with the hope of kicking applications into the long grass.

Over a six month period I have probably dealt with 7 or 8 different people as my letters have been passed between case handlers. Last week I had a conversation with my regional FEO, a lovely chap with whom I have previously had both telcons and face-to-face meetings. What he revealed is a bit worrying in its thrust and also its underlying suppositions.

Firstly, he confirmed that my application was with the FEO superintendent as "no one else can sign it off". Secondly, new guidelines issued to D&C FEOs [by this new super' ?] are that several calibres are "excessive" for any UK applications [Despite clear HOG guidelines to the contrary] and if used on domestic quarry, the "carcass would be blown to bits". FEOs have also been told to "decline certain calibres because the [higher] muzzle energy increases the probability of the bullet emerging from the far side of the quarry". The FEO stated that 300WIN and .375 were listed specifically in this new approach. It is worth noting that the .375 has just 32% more muzzle energy than a .308! It is not some quantum leap in power.

By his own admission, my local FEO is not an ardent shooter and is merely singing from the songsheet given to him. I started to explain how each of the points raised are, at minimum, debatable and probably misbegotten. So I have submitted an additional letter to the FEO Superintendent this week containing the arguments below. If I hear nothing in 10 days, I will need to proceed down the same road as bowji john and engage shooting association legal folk. I would hope that is unneccessary...




Taken in turn:

if [a .375] was used on domestic quarry, the "carcass would be blown to bits" - There is plenty of empirical and anecdotal evidence to show that fast and light causes more damage than slow and heavy [e.g. the UK's ubiquitous .243 vs .375] The point is that fast, light bullets often create wound channels dispproportionate to their calibre due to hydraulic shock. Certainly, folk in Africa hunt the tiny Duiker with .375 and [provided appropriate bullet used] the carcass damage is no greater than that from any lesser calibre.

FEOs have also been told to "decline certain calibres because the [higher] muzzle energy increases the probability of the bullet emerging from the far side of the quarry" - ANY rifle calibre can achieve quarry pass-through. Every UK hunter assumes pass-through is a possible outcome and ensures that there is a safe back stop to trap the bullet should that happen. I do not think I have ever seen a Roe carcass that did not exhibit entry and exit wounds. A trip to any AGHE cold room in the UK would reveal most Reds have bi-lateral thoracic perforations.The idea that elevated muzzle energy makes pass-through more likely is just a straw argument: pass-through can and does happen every day in the UK. Safely. UK hunters mitigate that risk already. Any rifle that satisfies the minimum energy requirements for humane despatch of deer can and will pass through those animals.
 
My .375 variation has endured an epic and unduly impeded path through D&C licencing since October 2018. Per my post #40, I put this down to new staffing and extra work load on D&C as a function of the addition of Dorset to their jurisdiction. I am now tending to agree with bowji john: there seems to be a desire to delay processing with the hope of kicking applications into the long grass.

Over a six month period I have probably dealt with 7 or 8 different people as my letters have been passed between case handlers. Last week I had a conversation with my regional FEO, a lovely chap with whom I have previously had both telcons and face-to-face meetings. What he revealed is a bit worrying in its thrust and also its underlying suppositions.

Firstly, he confirmed that my application was with the FEO superintendent as "no one else can sign it off". Secondly, new guidelines issued to D&C FEOs [by this new super' ?] are that several calibres are "excessive" for any UK applications [Despite clear HOG guidelines to the contrary] and if used on domestic quarry, the "carcass would be blown to bits". FEOs have also been told to "decline certain calibres because the [higher] muzzle energy increases the probability of the bullet emerging from the far side of the quarry". The FEO stated that 300WIN and .375 were listed specifically in this new approach. It is worth noting that the .375 has just 32% more muzzle energy than a .308! It is not some quantum leap in power.

By his own admission, my local FEO is not an ardent shooter and is merely singing from the songsheet given to him. I started to explain how each of the points raised are, at minimum, debatable and probably misbegotten. So I have submitted an additional letter to the FEO Superintendent this week containing the arguments below. If I hear nothing in 10 days, I will need to proceed down the same road as bowji john and engage shooting association legal folk. I would hope that is unneccessary...




Taken in turn:

if [a .375] was used on domestic quarry, the "carcass would be blown to bits" - There is plenty of empirical and anecdotal evidence to show that fast and light causes more damage than slow and heavy [e.g. the UK's ubiquitous .243 vs .375] The point is that fast, light bullets often create wound channels dispproportionate to their calibre due to hydraulic shock. Certainly, folk in Africa hunt the tiny Duiker with .375 and [provided appropriate bullet used] the carcass damage is no greater than that from any lesser calibre.

FEOs have also been told to "decline certain calibres because the [higher] muzzle energy increases the probability of the bullet emerging from the far side of the quarry" - ANY rifle calibre can achieve quarry pass-through. Every UK hunter assumes pass-through is a possible outcome and ensures that there is a safe back stop to trap the bullet should that happen. I do not think I have ever seen a Roe carcass that did not exhibit entry and exit wounds. A trip to any AGHE cold room in the UK would reveal most Reds have bi-lateral thoracic perforations.The idea that elevated muzzle energy makes pass-through more likely is just a straw argument: pass-through can and does happen every day in the UK. Safely. UK hunters mitigate that risk already. Any rifle that satisfies the minimum energy requirements for humane despatch of deer can and will pass through those animals.

Very interesting Zambezi

I too had heard (from my FEO) that they were reluctant to sanction 300 win mag - he didn't mention 375

I came up with similar arguments regarding the 'slow is pro' approach to muzzle velocities and meat damage and through and through passage of the round

I suspect there is an underlying concern of 'heavy caliber' rifles (and their perceived capacity to defeat body armor and the like) lies, in part, behind this new initiative

The RFD who was so helpful in guiding me through this process had similar issues with his 338 for just that reason

He is adamant that this issue of not responding to variations that they don't wish to process is quite deliberate.

Apparently, they have acknowledged in the past that the prevalence of re-loading has taken a valuable lever away from them - that of starving an applicant of ammo by not responding

Initially dubious that a fire arms dept would behave in such a way - in retrospect i have found that they behaved exactly as predicted by the RFD who guided me

It is only by communicating such issues among ourselves are we likely to be able to put up a strong defense against the march of the new order

I suspect Zambezi, that BASC (or equiv) is ultimately where you will have to go
 
This is what happens when those with little knowledge of a subject get a bee in their bonnet about something and don’t consider the practicalities.

I suspect there is an underlying concern of 'heavy caliber' rifles (and their perceived capacity to defeat body armor and the like) lies, in part, behind this new initiative

In that case they should be really concerned about all the 22-250 rifles that are in the county. :eek:
 
Zambezi, you could add that bullet through and through can even be desirable in many circumstances, as it will guarantee a good blood trail to follow.

Wait a minute .…… they wouldn’t think in a million years that the animals can move on after being ‘blown to bits’ would they? :-|
 
This is what happens when those with little knowledge of a subject get a bee in their bonnet about something and don’t consider the practicalities.

I want to hope that it is just an education thing. But I suspect that it is a political issue, unfettered to fact in any way. Recall the aborted .50cal/MARs legislation? I have no doubt but that a virtue-signalling politician drafted that piece of gesture politics. That the first few drafts were rejected by subsequent parliamentary review is testament to our democratic process.

In the same way that urban dwellers can be swayed on rural matters by the Packhams of this world, politicians know there is political capital to be made [with same city folk] if they are "seen to be doing something about gun crime". There's the rub: curbing legitimate and safe firearms use does nothing to address the real issues of illegal gun crime in this country. BUT...it is easier to legislate against legal users than it is to track down criminals. And MSM play their part in misinforming the general public.

And so I suspect that the current D&C FEO bid to curb licencing of full bore rifles is an attempt to implement the spirit of the original draft of the Offensive Weapons Bill 2017, but without the force of law. That is to be resisted by every law-abiding citizen. That pernicious wording was rejected by our parliament because it did not pass muster. Existing law needs to be upheld.
 
And so I suspect that the current D&C FEO bid to curb licencing of full bore rifles is an attempt to implement the spirit of the original draft of the Offensive Weapons Bill 2017, but without the force of law. That is to be resisted by every law-abiding citizen. That pernicious wording was rejected by our parliament because it did not pass muster. Existing law needs to be upheld.

You may or course be correct, but I personally doubt that is behind it. The D&C FLD started having strange ideas about certain calibres and associated items (12 bore slug) nearly 5 years ago when the new manager took up post. If the Supt was the one in charge then a similar, although less stringent attitude was already in place. So it looks to me to be a personal crusade backed by flawed reasoning - 'blown to bits', 'bullet emerging from the far side of the quarry' are the kind of emotive things stated by those with little real knowledge of things shooting. When my FAC came back partially revoked (12 bore slugs refused!), unworkable condition on a 9.3 and no ammo allowance, it was very revealing how the lack of knowledge was provoking a negative response, until I dug my heels in.
 
My local FEO called me on Wednesday to advise that he had reminded the FEO supr' to call me or action my request on the previous Friday. I have yet to receive either a call or the amended FAC. If nothing forthcoming by end of next week, engaging shooting association legal folk is my next recourse. But I will not limit it to that. If there is still no satisfaction, I am happy to engage a silk if required. The law is clear.
 
Must certainly be a larger calibre thing. I posted my variation for a .280 to D&C on the 23rd April and had a phone call today from the FEO querying the 500 rounds requested. He stated he could do 350 and post out the new certificate today but if I wanted more it would need further approval and would take longer. I accepted the 350.
 
My local FEO called me on Wednesday to advise that he had reminded the FEO supr' to call me or action my request on the previous Friday. I have yet to receive either a call or the amended FAC. If nothing forthcoming by end of next week, engaging shooting association legal folk is my next recourse.

By the 13th May I had still heard nothing so called the CA. They advised I should email the D&C FEO supr [rather than snail-mail] and copy the CA in correspondence as they wish to track the outcome. In the week that followed, my local FEO acknowledged the email, but explained that the senior chap was very busy.

After a further 2 weeks [in which I have received no phone call or letters] I emailed the FEO supr again on 29th May. It is now 6 weeks since my application landed on his desk after passing through the hands of 3 other staffers at Middlemoor.

The D&C website declares applicants should chase if they receive no reply to applications after 5 weeks. Well, I am now chasing...

D&C_5weeks.webp
 
By the 13th May I had still heard nothing so called the CA. They advised I should email the D&C FEO supr [rather than snail-mail] and copy the CA in correspondence as they wish to track the outcome. In the week that followed, my local FEO acknowledged the email, but explained that the senior chap was very busy.

After a further 2 weeks [in which I have received no phone call or letters] I emailed the FEO supr again on 29th May. It is now 6 weeks since my application landed on his desk after passing through the hands of 3 other staffers at Middlemoor.

The D&C website declares applicants should chase if they receive no reply to applications after 5 weeks. Well, I am now chasing...

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And these are the cheeky bar stewards that want us to pay more for our FAC/SGC’s.
If they’re planning a brewery trip it might be an idea to get some cans in.

I have had previously had trouble with personal agendas getting in the way of the law. A common reply from staff was policy is we can’t give you it, but you can have. In hindsight they were always looking for you to retract or change your request. Rather than have to refuse in writing.
Though for many years I have not had any problems, till my last renewal. When the FEO was trying to insist on a land check for a 270. The land was previously cleared, Buthelezi said it had to be redone every renewal. Not happened previously, so I called BS. I also told him I could just find another piece of land get the 270 and shoot on the land anyway.
I got my certificate a couple of days later.
 
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