My apologies Brithunter, it would seem that I have inadvertently ruffled your feathers. Contrary to your assumption, it is in fact extremely interesting to hear the use of self-produced methods that work. As I mentioned above, you have certainly served your time with your successful method.
Case annealing
- Thread starter harrygrey382
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My apologies Brithunter, it would seem that I have inadvertently ruffled your feathers. Contrary to your assumption, it is in fact extremely interesting to hear the use of self-produced methods that work. As I mentioned above, you have certainly served your time with your successful method.
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Hmmm nope not self produced they taught it at college and it's also been in print many times of course we are all wrong. Also cartrides are also made of common brass and not the grade developed for such use known as cartridge brass.
Now I'm confused. Am I meant to heat to green and then quench or to dull red and then quench. Indeed should I be quenching at all!!! What I'm doing seems to work pretty well even if I haven't got a City and Guilds in the subject but I would like to at least try to be doing it correctly.
Again, you have completely missed half the posts in this thread.
I shall copy/paste to save you time:
We are talking about brass bullet cases, NOT general workshop brass metallurgy. A massive difference.
BUT, as I said above in the copied post, "I am most definitely not saying you won't get away with it, but it's a risk I am personally not willing to take." i.e, maybe your method works, and that's great!
No need to quench (contrary to common belief, this is not heat treating) unless you wish to cool the cases for immediate ease of handling. And, most definitely, do not heat to red/cherry.
Easiest way forward, is to do some research on what the professionals in this area say, professionals in "Brass Bullet Case Annealing and Metallurgy".
There are many books available on the exact above science, but an easier option without going stupidly deep is to check out an excellent site mentioned by A USER earlier in this thread:
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
If you wish to read and learn how to anneal brass cartridges cases properly then buy this book and on page 51 case annealing is covered:-
ISBN:0-88317-136-8
The handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions
Of course we must assume as it does not agree with some beliefs posted here then Mr Donnelly has no idea on what he is talking about nor on the subject matter
.
The book covers making cases from scratch and converting others to completly different formation be it for a wildcat or an obsolete or unobtainable case.
I have tried to help but I am now done with this.
ISBN:0-88317-136-8
The handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions
Of course we must assume as it does not agree with some beliefs posted here then Mr Donnelly has no idea on what he is talking about nor on the subject matter
. The book covers making cases from scratch and converting others to completly different formation be it for a wildcat or an obsolete or unobtainable case.
I have tried to help but I am now done with this.
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
I was considering trying to anneal some of my cases for the first time . . .but having just read this thread I might just buy some new ones - 
Saracen666
Well-Known Member
The moment there's a, hint of red, quench it.Hmmm obviously the instructors at the Technical College running the City & Gulds course all those years ago didn't know anything then then and all the old text books on annealing and heat treating must be wrong too
This is a blast from the past - 2 posts in the last 9 years or so.
There's been a lot more information and understanding available on home case annealing since this thread was active. - No we don't want to see the cases glowing red. No, there's no need to quench the brass. Mr. Donnelly's excellent book was written in the 1980's and gives sage advice on "annealing" brass cases but his main slant is converting cases from one calibre to another where a soft case and sometimes multiple annealing cycles are required for case forming. Stress relief annealing for maximum consistency of neck tension is not quite the same thing.
Here's a few 7x64 cases going through one of my machines.
Saracen666
Well-Known Member
That's not necessarily true, but the correct way to anneal brass is the very moment it starts to glow ( done with virtually no lighting in a darkened shed) you immediately quench it.
Brass works the opposite of most metals, and the immediate quenching, rather the cool slowly in the air, is the correct way, and widely recognised as such.
My 300 Win Mag brass really is proof of my procedure working, as over a dozen loads from my brass, with no issues, out of a calibre notorious for its alleged short case life, price my point. Annealing every single reload, no tumbling, no primer pocket cleaning, and certa no neck turning, have allowed me to put 8 rounds in a 6" target at 900 yards. Not boasting, just stating facts.
If your approach works, then good for you, but it's not necessarily the right way.
I think we must agree to disagree there - Your statement "Immediate water quenching is the correct way, and widely recognised as such" is just not so. There have been several authoritative studies, specifically on cartridge case annealing/stress relieving (As opposed to workshop practice) carried out over the last few years and none advocate water or any other fast quenching technique.
If anyone's interested, these few articles explain the process quite well.
https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
http://www.massreloading.com/annealing.html
https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
https://www.thebalance.com/annealing-explained-2340013
Saracen666
Well-Known Member
We can agree to disagree, but quenching makes it more ductile, and the reference to heating how I described allows not only sufficient heat, its easier to gain a consistency far beyond counting '1,2,3,4'.
Heres a reference to quenching:
is exactly the reverse of that used with steel.Brass is hardened when it is heated and allowed to cool slowly ; it is softened or annealed when heated and cooled suddenly. ... Casehardening is the process of making ahardened steel case around a piece of iron.
Each to their own though.
I would be very interested to know where you quoted that from and how reliable a source you thought it...I understood the only copper alloys you could precipitation harden were Beryllium Copper and the Copper Nickel alloys...70/30 cartridge brass, like most other copper alloys could only be work hardened.
I do remember there was always some debate as to whether if you quenched copper from red heat when full annealing it you could get it a tad softer than just letting it cool...but even though it wasn't proven I have always done it as a matter of course because it pinged off some of the fire scale and enabled me to get on with the job quicker. But even that was for pure Copper not Brass, and certainly neither of them are hardened if you let them cool slowly.
Alan
Yes, a quick quench with red hot copper frees the oxide scale prior to pickling. Nothing like a bit of sulphuric acid to clear the sinuses.
Terrifying when you think of it...we had a lead clad wooden pickle tank at school and the 5th form and up pupils were considered safe enough to take a deep breath and quench from hot! Not really surprising school kids only get to use hot glue guns now!
My most successful water quenched patina was on this 6mm Copper flower stand bowl...it worked really well with the John Piper "Autumn" tapestry on the chapel wall...
Alan
Saracen666
Well-Known Member
Hi Alan, it was second or third down on a Google search. I typed in ' Quenching heated brass.'
Brass being what it is, it needs the sudden quenching to make it softer / more ductile.
I'm a welder by trade, and when I first read about heating brass cases to a faint glow, then immediately quench ; I was astounded, as that's the very last thing you'd do with most metals. In welding you'd probably have the weld fail an X-ray due to hot cracks / grain growth. It's absolutely the last thing you'd do if you welded something really hard like titanium.
I can't be certain, but I may have originally read about this method in a Remington or possibly, an RCBS publication, which suggested using a baking tray with about 1.5 inches of water, where you stand the case up, and heat the cases to a dull red using a small gas torch, like a plumber would use, then immediately flick them over to quench them, being careful to only heat the necks.
Whatever works for the individual.
It goes without saying, DO NOT OVERHEAT!
The idea isn't to collapse the case, or in any way make it resemble lava dropping off of Mount Vesuvius .
Drying them in an oven or on a radiator, as mentioned earlier in the thread, is mandatory.
Then it's resize, trim etc etc...
I've previously been rather lazy commenting on here, but it's interesting, and certainly worth resurrecting an old thread, as we can all learn from each other.
One bit of advice I'd offer, especially for someone who shoots long range, or even if they don't, is take the plunge and buy quality brass such as Norma, RWS ( watch your pressures with this as its a LOT thicker), Peterson, and SAKO. That's brass I've had good experiences with, though others may not have.
GGG brass is hard, and the primers are crimped in, RG is Berdan primed ( 7.62, 5.56), Winchester varies too much, plus the batch I had, had flash holes off centre, Hornady I found to be okay, R+P was surprisingly good, but many would say otherwise.
Anyway, it's all interesting stuff.
dreddrockz
Active Member
Red hot is def too hot and colour is not the best gauge, tempilaq is a good start point but also consider ditching federal, it's awful stuff.
@Saracen666 Well I reckon that source is suspect...if you look at the Copper Development Association link I posted and any other books that I have read brass is not hardened by cooling slowly...I think he has just been told that brass is the opposite of quench-to-harden tool steel, and has reversed the properties theoretically. The idea that brass may become slightly more soft by quenching than cooling slowly is the nearest it gets...and I have only heard that applied to pure copper.
It is certainly not true from my empirical experience either.
Most of my projects have been from steel and stainless steel but the first few years before using the bigger hammers was working non-ferrous, mainly gold and silver as a jeweller and silversmith. But I have done a number which included hot forged and cold formed 60/40 brass, silicon bronze, aluminium bronze and copper and none of those non-ferrous metals become harder if left to cool after annealing.
@dreddrockz an alternative indicator to Tempilaq is laundry soap will turn black at around 400˚C which is the full annealing temperature of Aluminium and the stress relief annealing temperature for 70/30 Cartridge Brass, which is sufficient to prolong case life by preventing neck splits but still preserves the original degree of neck tension, which is lost with full annealing temperatures. I also find the soap easier and cheaper to use than Tempilaq.
We have had a few interesting annealing threads since this one! I wrote up the research I did regarding stress relief annealing, which led me to use laundry soap as a tell tale in Stress Relief Annealing cartridge brass and there were a couple of interesting discussions more recently Annealing cases was one of them.
Alan
It is certainly not true from my empirical experience either.
Most of my projects have been from steel and stainless steel but the first few years before using the bigger hammers was working non-ferrous, mainly gold and silver as a jeweller and silversmith. But I have done a number which included hot forged and cold formed 60/40 brass, silicon bronze, aluminium bronze and copper and none of those non-ferrous metals become harder if left to cool after annealing.
@dreddrockz an alternative indicator to Tempilaq is laundry soap will turn black at around 400˚C which is the full annealing temperature of Aluminium and the stress relief annealing temperature for 70/30 Cartridge Brass, which is sufficient to prolong case life by preventing neck splits but still preserves the original degree of neck tension, which is lost with full annealing temperatures. I also find the soap easier and cheaper to use than Tempilaq.
We have had a few interesting annealing threads since this one! I wrote up the research I did regarding stress relief annealing, which led me to use laundry soap as a tell tale in Stress Relief Annealing cartridge brass and there were a couple of interesting discussions more recently Annealing cases was one of them.
Alan
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