Questions regarding differences between Scottish and English FAC's, Firearms Laws

[User00040]

Dear All,

As a Scottish FAC holder I would like to know more about the differences between Scotland and England/Wales in terms of Firearms Laws and Licensing (sorry for leaving out Northern Ireland!).

My questions are as follows:

1- Are there any major differences between Scottish and English FAC's?

Occasionally I see comments regarding open/closed certificates and asked my officer about them during the visit. As far as the officer was concerned, so long as you have permission to shoot on that land, the land is cleared for that caliber and you are shooting in a legal, safe and responsible manner then you are fine. So is this an English/Welsh thing?

2- Conditions.

If someone applies for a rifle for the purpose of controlling of vermin and/or stalking deer, are they allowed to use said firearm for target shooting on a shooting range at all? (I.e at a competition)

Obviously you need to zero a rifle before using it and hopefully get the chance to practice occasionally but is there some sort of guidance on this? I am asking as I advised to make sure that 'competition/target shooting' was written on all the rifles I applied for just in case.

I think in the past I have read that people are weary of shooting a wild boar/fox as it is 'not listed as one of their conditions'. I can't see any conditions listed on my FAC so I presume this may be a English/Welsh thing?

3- Any other differences which may be of interest/that others should know about.

It would be nice to have some clarity on these questions.

Thank you.

 

[levigsp]

So, he is wrong, if the land is passed then its a closed cert. An open cert, its if you have the legal permission to shoot there, you deem the land fit yourself. A BIG Difference.

 

[User00040]

So, he is wrong, if the land is passed then its a closed cert. An open cert, its if you have the legal permission to shoot there, you deem the land fit yourself. A BIG Difference.

Is there something written on your FAC to denote if you have an open or closed cert or is it an internal thing?

 

[Orion]

Is there something written on your FAC to denote if you have an open or closed cert or is it an internal thing?

Look at 10.51 onwards and the beginning of chapter 13 HOG and Appendix 3 - it's all there.

To add that you can view the thread at the head of this section of the forum as well. Do I have an Open or Closed FAC?

 

[User00040]

Look at 10.51 onwards and the beginning of chapter 13 HOG and Appendix 3 - it's all there.

Thank you very much for that, Appendix 3 answers my questions.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Firearms law is not devolved, so the same law applies to firearms certificates issued throughout England, Wales and Scotland.
Each police force has some discretion on whether it applies conditions, and if so, what conditions it applies.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[User00040]

Look at 10.51 onwards and the beginning of chapter 13 HOG and Appendix 3 - it's all there.

To add that you can view the thread at the head of this section of the forum as well. Do I have an Open or Closed FAC?

Thanks for the additional link, I should have seen it.

 

[slider]

As far as I am aware Police Scotland no longer issue closed certificates, so effectively the Offcer in point one is correct

 

[kes]

WRT shooting on ranges, in most cases here and England, your FAC will say 'for zeroing or on ranges' with an OPEN cert. Mine has (once) gone further and suggested 'on ranges where appropriate insurance cover is available' I am afraid I made an assumption about range insurance and did not specifically ask, since they were MOD or club ranges and the police cannot specifically state that requirement.

 

[Apthorpe]

WRT shooting on ranges, in most cases here and England, your FAC will say 'for zeroing or on ranges' with an OPEN cert. Mine has (once) gone further and suggested 'on ranges where appropriate insurance cover is available' I am afraid I made an assumption about range insurance and did not specifically ask, since they were MOD or club ranges and the police cannot specifically state that requirement.

I would interpret that as meaning you're ok to fire on ranges so long as you're insured. What it actually says is a nonsense since it stipulates insurance must be available for you to use ranges but does not stipulate that your activity be covered by it.
I'm not inclined to push boundaries but I wonder whether poorly drafted, arbitrary and nonsensical conditions are actually legally enforceable.

 

[Sinistral]

I would interpret that as meaning you're ok to fire on ranges so long as you're insured. What it actually says is a nonsense since it stipulates insurance must be available for you to use ranges but does not stipulate that your activity be covered by it.
I'm not inclined to push boundaries but I wonder whether poorly drafted, arbitrary and nonsensical conditions are actually legally enforceable.

You’re conflating sporting insurance, zeroing on your own patch of land, and Home Office FAC Conditions. Formerly the FAC Condition said ‘for use on approved ranges’.The MOD stopped certifying rifle ranges & issuing Range Safety Certificates years ago so ‘approved’ contractors such as Frank Haxfield now do it.

Whether or not you have your own insurance (such as BASC Membership insurance cover) makes no difference when shooting on MOD or a private rifle range. The law now requires the ‘Range Operator’ to have suitable public liability insurance in place, so the onus is on him. When using a rifle range you’re covered by that insurance rather than your own.
This is an awfully complicated area, but most if not all private fullbore Home Office Approved rifle clubs are affiliated to the NRA, and pay a capitation fee for every member.This link explains how that works.

Club Membership

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

the differences between Scotland and England/Wales in terms of Firearms Laws and Licensing

I can easily clarify one point, there is absolutely no difference in Firearms Licensing between different parts of the UK for the simple and sufficient reason that there is no such thing as firearms licensing anywhere in the UK. Sorry about being a stuck record on this, but nowhere in the relevant legislation will you find the words licence or licensing, regardless of how much the public servants in the Home Office or police officers might wish there was. We have certificates, not licences, and while the difference might be subtle, it is significant. A licence means that you have been granted permission, a certificate acknowledges that you have met the legislative requirement to exercise your right to possess / use the specified firearms.

Look at the legislation:-

27 Special provisions about firearm certificates.E+W+S
[F1(1)A firearm certificate shall be granted
28Special provisions about shot gun certificates.E+W+S
[F1(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted

Note the use of the verb "shall", not "may" . . .

 

[Apthorpe]

You’re conflating sporting insurance, zeroing on your own patch of land, and Home Office FAC Conditions. Formerly the FAC Condition said ‘for use on approved ranges’.The MOD stopped certifying rifle ranges & issuing Range Safety Certificates years ago so ‘approved’ contractors such as Frank Haxfield now do it.

Whether or not you have your own insurance (such as BASC Membership insurance cover) makes no difference when shooting on MOD or a private rifle range. The law now requires the ‘Range Operator’ to have suitable public liability insurance in place, so the onus is on him. When using a rifle range you’re covered by that insurance rather than your own.
This is an awfully complicated area, but most if not all private fullbore Home Office Approved rifle clubs are affiliated to the NRA, and pay a capitation fee for every member.This link explains how that works.

Club Membership

Thank you. I am enlightened!

 

[JasonO92]

Im police scotland and my only condition in part 5 says, the firearms and ammunition shall be used for the lawful shooting of vermin inlcuding fox, groud game ,deer and any other lawful quarry , and for zwroing and practice o n ranges and land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot,

i think this is deemed as an open cert am i right?

 

[Orion]

Yes

 

[slider]

Im police scotland and my only condition in part 5 says, the firearms and ammunition shall be used for the lawful shooting of vermin inlcuding fox, groud game ,deer and any other lawful quarry , and for zwroing and practice o n ranges and land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot,

i think this is deemed as an open cert am i right?

yes, pretty standard wording from Police Scotland now

 

[Heym SR20]

There should be no differences between Scotland and England as Firearms Law is still held by Westminster. The only fundamental differences will be Deer Legal calibres as there are differences between England and Scots law in this regard. So in England a 45-70 can be authorised for use on Deer, where as in Scotland it cannot. In Scotland we have no min calibre, but min bullet weight of 50gr for Roe and 100gn for everything else. So a .22 centrefire with 50 gn can be used on Roe deer, whereas in England it can only be used on Muntjac and CWD. And in England I can a shoot a red deer with an 95gn 243 Partition Bullet, but in Scotland I have to use a 100gn bullet.

The main differences are how the Poilice Interpret the Guidelines and expect that there is a much variation in this as between all the various forces in England. Frankly in Scotland there seems to be a lot of variation depending on which area you are in.

 

[TH4]

If there is no difference in firearms law between England and Scotland why do you need a certificate for an air rifle in scotland and not England and Wales

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

Frankly in Scotland there seems to be a lot of variation depending on which area you are in.

I've got a wee bit of sympathy for the police on this. If they apply exactly the same policy force-wide, then some people accuse them of having a "one size fits all" approach which doesn't take account of local conditions; if they show a bit of flexibility then they get accused of being inconsistent.

 

[Island]

If there is no difference in firearms law between England and Scotland why do you need a certificate for an air rifle in scotland and not England and Wales

If one was to be pedantic then the most accurate answer is simply that the requirement for an AWC in Scotland is not enshrined in "Firearms" law, it is a requirement of the "Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015".