6.5 Grendel Revisited.

[Muir]

I have been working with the 6.5 Grendel cartridge for the last two years and, after sorting out some trigger and bedding issues with my CZ 527 American, have hit a good stride with regards to reliable, consistent accuracy. One of the powder brands i have tried was LOVEX, branded in the US as "Shooter's World" powders. The one I have focused on the most is labeled "Match Rifle" but carries the LOVEX designation of D073.6. Shooter's World has just updated their data to include several bullet weights for this powder in the Grendel. I had been experimenting with 28.5 grains (a 123 grain charge weight) and gotten a somewhat anemic velocity of around 2500 fps with my favorite Sierra Pro Hunter 120 grain. Accuracy was stellar. The new data specifically for the 120 grain showed a MAX charge of 32.2 grains operating at 51K PSI. I upped my charge to 31.0 grains and averaged 10 rounds @ just under 2700 fps, with an SD in the single digits. Cases were FL resized, trimmed and the seated bullet, crimped. Primers were S&B SR. Accuracy was half MOA.

I don't think I'll load any hotter though it truth, the brass looked fine with only a hint of sooting on the necks. A quick run through the calculator shows a ME of around 1900 ft/lbs. I know that the Grendel isn't overly (or at all!) popular in the UK but maybe it should be? Small case capacity, efficient and very good ballistics. ~Muir

 

[User00040]

Short/mini action rifles and barrelled actions are just too expensive here due to low demand, loaded rounds and factory brass even more so!

My guess anyway.

Did you stick to SAMMI spec COAL?

 

[Muir]

No. Or not that I can attest to. I loaded to .010" shorter than magazine length which ended up being 2.280". I think that this is .020" longer than the data provided wanted for the Sierra TMK the data was designed for. I thought Howa and CZ were available in the UK? I know that PPU just re-released the ammo.~Muir

I know that Lapua makes the brass. The THLR videos on the Grendel feature it. Lord knows I've never seen it.

 

[User00040]

Just seen that Precision Rifle Services has a Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel for under 600 quid...

Two 6mmPPC Sako 75's are also for sale here at the moment, making the idea of a 6.5 Grendel sako 75 very very tempting!

 

[Muir]

A SAKO custom was what the fellow in the THLR videos on the Grendel used. SAKOs are expensive and scarce as hen's teeth here.
The Grendel Forum in the US gives good accounts of the Howa. The Grendel is not the end-all of deer cartridges but if you're in the mood for an efficient cartridge that hits outside it's weight class, this one certainly fits the bill. I have always had a soft spot for the little cartridges like the 7,62x39. the 300 AAC and the Grendel. In the right hands all are lethal on deer.

I took a look. PPU is producing ammo again. It is silly cheap here:: $14 US for twenty rounds when you can get it. It is always sold out. Reviews show low ES and single digit SDs.~Muir

 

[M275]

My CZ 527 Varmint MTR in 6.5 Grendel has finally arrived so I'll be assembling some ammunition for it shortly, once I've mounted a scope..

I need to make 1700 fl lbs to be deer-competition-legal and I'm going to kick off with the 108gn Lapua Scenar and the 107gn Sierra MK.

Nitro-Chemie Reload Swiss RS40 looks like a good bet since I'm unlikely to get the velocity I need with pure nitrocellulose powders even with a 650mm barrel. After that I'll try some of the ball powders made by Explosia (‘Lovex’) from Semtin in the Czech Republic and the Poudrerie Belge de Clermont powders now sold as Ramshot and Accurate by Western powders. I'd like to try Alliant Power Pro Varmint but that isn't imported into the UK. Norma 202 and Hodgdon CFE223 have suitable burn rates and are double-base so could be worth a try.

So the shortlist so far is:

Reload Swiss RS40
Accurate 2230 / Lovex DO-73.4 / Ramshot X-Terminator (all very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2460 / Lovex DO-73.5 (very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2520 / Lovex DO-73.6 / Ramshot Wild Boar (all very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2495 / Ramshot TAC (very similar if not identical)
Norma 202 (very similar to the discontinued Reloader 12)
Hodgdon CFE223

 

[EigerWand]

Being as I'm getting on in years, I thought I would get a light rifle.
My opinion is that a light rifle should shoot a light cartridge.
I mostly hunt smaller animals like Red hinds, sika, fallow and wild goats and have very seldom shot at animals over 300m.
I have a bigger rifle that I can use for Red stags and tahr.
So, I'm working up a 6.5 Grendel for my new main rifle.
Here's what I've worked out so far:

If you can stretch to a 1/2" longer action you can get a 260Rem or 6.5Creedmore, which are ballistically superior in all ways. Except the gun is heavier through the middle part and all you ammo is a little heavier too (but not by much as most of the weight is in the120gr bullet).
So, the forte of the grendel is in short actions, originally the AR15 but also those designed around the 7.62x39.
There is no point in using this cartridge in an action that will take a 308 length case.

The barrel: go short or go home. If you are planning on using a 24" barrel and getting 2700 fps out of the Grendel then you could use a 20" 260Rem and it would be smaller and lighter and give a flatter trajectory and more thump at the end. So, in my opinion, a Grendel should be 18" or less preferably.

Now, small case plus short barrel plus heavy bullet means low muzzle velocity. More like 2400fps. This is the same as the .303, so trajectory should be manageable. But you also have to shoot a small target so realistically you need a range finder to shoot properly beyond 100m.

The second consequence of the low muzzle velocity is marginal bullet expansion. Most 6.5mm bullets in the 100-120gr range were designed as high velocity ammunition as they are at the bottom of the range for the 6.5x55 and 260Rem. Apparently, Hornady designed their 6.5 SST for use in the Grendel but my experience with factory ammo was disappointing. Next, I tried the Nosler 6.5 120gr ballistic tip and this was evidently designed as the high velocity member of the line up and really does pencil through at terminal velocities around 2000 fps. This is on goats. I have shot one red deer with it and it did drop quite promptly, perhaps being a bigger tougher animal, the bullet expanded satisfactorily. I've tried a few of the Hornady ELD-M factory ammo (sold as target ammo but known to have a rather frangible bullet) and they did seem to make a bigger hole. So, this needs more development.

I have to say, this rifle shot small groups straight away. Perhaps the Grendel is really an inherently accurate round.
I'm using Lapua 6.5Grendel brass, which is available in New Zealand. This was very uniform in weight and spot on for dimensions, didn't need any prep before bringing into use. Powder is ADI BM8208, easily available in Australia and NZ. Primers are Federal SR mag.

 

[Muir]

You seem to have it all figured out. In my experience, the 7,62x39 is an inherently accurate cartridge. I'm told its off spring, the PPC line, delivers acceptable accuracy, and from what I've seen of the Grendel over the last 3 years of loadings, it seems to be inherently accurate as well. It seems to be as good as the rifle it is used in but even my $400 Ruger Predator Grendel shoots in the half MOA class, with or without the suppressor.~Muir

 

[Laurie]

ge

Reload Swiss RS40
Accurate 2230 / Lovex DO-73.4 / Ramshot X-Terminator (all very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2460 / Lovex DO-73.5 (very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2520 / Lovex DO-73.6 / Ramshot Wild Boar (all very similar if not identical)
Accurate 2495 / Ramshot TAC (very similar if not identical)
Norma 202 (very similar to the discontinued Reloader 12)
Hodgdon CFE223

Bill Alexander and a lot of Grendel shooters on its dedicated forum (65grendel.com) recommend Ramshot TAC as a 'go-to' starter powder for 107-123s. Bill also advises the cartridge is VERY primer-sensitive and once you have the desired MV / group sizes, try a selection. In my limited experiments to date in a Howa Mini Oryx (the MDT chassis stock model)

Howa Mini Action « Daily Bulletin

Tac has done very well but I have yet to find the charge upper limit. Ramshot's top load gives around 2,400 fps in the 20-inch Howa barrel which QuickLOAD suggests is running at around ~49,000 psi, right in line with the US SAAMI 50,000 psi MAP. This limit is, I assume, dictated by the cartridge's primary US application being AR-15 type gas guns and the European CIP MAP of 4,050 bar / 58,740 psi should be easily usable in bolt-actions like the Cz527 and Howa Mini.

Up to now my best results have been with Viht N133 which has also pushed 120s out at 2,470 fps (1,626 ft/lb ME) with the heaviest charge used to date without any pressure signs.

Both QuickLOAD and US reports of actual use suggest CFE223 will be velocity king in the Grendel. I've yet to try it, likewise Ramshot Wild Boar (aka US-only Accurate-2520) and which QuickLOAD suggests will be a yet better match than Tac. However, don't write off single-base extruded types too quickly. As well as N133, Lovex SO62 is turning out to be an excellent replacement for H4895 and H. VarGet in a wide range of cartridges, and it looks good in this one too with 120-130gn class bullets.

The Lovex DO73.x group should give excellent velocities, but I gave up on them years ago as very dirty burners. Explosia may have changed the formulation since I used them, but if it hasn't, the Belgian manufactured Ramshot powders are IMO superior. Incidentally, whilst these propellants used to be sold as 'Accurate Arms' grades until maybe 12, 15 years ago with D073.6 marketed as '2520', no US 'Accurate' brand powders have been sourced from Explosia since Western Powders the Ram,shot people bought the Accurate business, recent sources being either General Dynamics St. Marks, Florida or P B Clermont in Belgium for ball types, and General Dynamics Valleyfield, Quebec, Canada for extruded grades. (Valleyfield makes most IMR grades too for Hodgdon.)

I have to say, this rifle shot small groups straight away. Perhaps the Grendel is really an inherently accurate round.
I'm using Lapua 6.5Grendel brass, which is available in New Zealand. This was very uniform in weight and spot on for dimensions, didn't need any prep before bringing into use. Powder is ADI BM8208, easily available in Australia and NZ. Primers are Federal SR mag.

8208 in its Hodgdon marketed 'IMR-8208 XBR' form is another US 'go-to' for the Grendel. It's no longer available here being a victim of the EU 'Reach' health & safety' regulations as per all ADI manufactured powders and more than a few St. Marks products too.

 

[Laurie]

The second consequence of the low muzzle velocity is marginal bullet expansion. Most 6.5mm bullets in the 100-120gr range were designed as high velocity ammunition as they are at the bottom of the range for the 6.5x55 and 260Rem. Apparently, Hornady designed their 6.5 SST for use in the Grendel but my experience with factory ammo was disappointing. Next, I tried the Nosler 6.5 120gr ballistic tip and this was evidently designed as the high velocity member of the line up and really does pencil through at terminal velocities around 2000 fps. This is on goats. I have shot one red deer with it and it did drop quite promptly, perhaps being a bigger tougher animal, the bullet expanded satisfactorily. I've tried a few of the Hornady ELD-M factory ammo (sold as target ammo but known to have a rather frangible bullet) and they did seem to make a bigger hole. So, this needs more development.

The American Grendel shooters on 65grendel.com rate the 120gn Sierra Pro-Hunter SPT as an excellent performer in this cartridge on whitetail deer and similar, but moan it has been unobtainable for some time, likewise formerly available factory cartridges loaded with it. It was always out of stock in the UK too, but looking at Henry Krank's website today, it seems it's back again:

6.5mm Sierra Bullets (.264) 120gr SPT pkt100 - Sierra Bullet Heads - Bullet Heads - RELOADING

 

[EigerWand]

Thanks for the suggestion about the Pro Hunters. It looks as if they are available in NZ, OK.

Sierra Rifle Projectiles 25 Cal to 7mm - Hunting and Outdoor Supplies

Also the tip about primers.
I haven't got it figured out by a long shot - looking for all pointers.

Does anyone know what;'s the difference between the Hornady 120 and 123gr ELD-match ?

Over pressure doesn't seem to be the limitation - it's just how much powder i can fit in the case.
If I put increments of 0.1 grain in, the OAL increases bit by bit. I'm guessing the charge is compressed and my press is stretching. And this is still below the ADI book max load.

Sorry to hear about powder supply problems. We're having a transport squeeze in NZ too. Just a general tightening up and reinterpretation of old regulations as far as I can tell.

 

[EigerWand]

This is the main reason for using a grendel rather than a 308 sized round.

 

[Laurie]

Does anyone know what;'s the difference between the Hornady 120 and 123gr ELD-match ?

Shape-wise, the 120gn version is identical to the discontinued 120 AMax, but presumably now has a non-melting 'plastic' tip. It retains a secant ogive, virtually VLD-mode form. Hornady may or may not have changed jacket thickness and core alloy, but one imagines it'll be pretty frangible like the old 120 AMax.

The 123gn has been comprehensively redesigned and is much less-VLDish than its AMax predecessor so is presumably easier to 'tune' for jump. Despite the nose shape change it produces usefully less drag than the old AMax hence a bit higher BC. I imagine it is a considerably better match bullet.

 

[M275]

View attachment 142187

This is the main reason for using a grendel rather than a 308 sized round.

Is that a PPC-sized Sako action, or an L46/L461/AI/S491 with the bolt face opened up? I was thinking of a custom Grendel on the Sako pre-75 PPC actions but they're extremely rare in the UK, so went with the CZ 527.

 

[EigerWand]

Yes it is originally 6mmPC, so didn't need any work on the bolt face or mag. The booklet says both L461 and A1.
In my opinion the action is not as good as the Sako 85 in several ways.
Your CZ may have been a better way to go.

 

[Muir]

I got lucky. I walked into our trading post when the AMAX, ELD, and other plastic bullets were the rage. I bought two dusty plastic-wrapped 5 box sleeves of the 120 Pro Hunter for $50 each. I had been reading about the superb accuracy of these bullets in the Grendel and found the same was true for my loads. I like the CZ though it needed bedding and serious trigger work. (Ended up with a Timney) I was shooting it off hand yesterday. It handled and grouped like a quality 22LR. Wherever the reticle was when the trigger broke there was a bullet hole in the target. My rifle has a 24" barrel but I like it..~Muir

 

[25 Sharps]

Short/mini action rifles and barrelled actions are just too expensive here due to low demand, loaded rounds and factory brass even more so!

My guess anyway.

Did you stick to SAMMI spec COAL?

I know 2 people that stalk with them, Howa and CZ readily available, factory ammo available and brass if not available easily formed from 7.62x39

 

[Muir]

I shot a decent sized mule deer doe with mine yesterday, using the aforementioned load. It thoroughly killed her. She went about 20 yards, spraying blood from the exit wound, and fell dead. The 120 Sierra went through one shoulder, shredded the lungs and exited opposite the entrance. I continue to be impressed with this cartridge. Love my CZ.~Muir