Need for higher standards of marksmanship?

[Kevgun]

Get an old Bsa Airsporter with open sights, it’s all the practise tool you’ll ever need.
my old gran taught me to shoot with one, She could hit a 2pence piece everytime at 25 yards, I was lucky to do it one in ten, she taught me it’s al in the hol, was i sussed that I was away, most people look past the Air rifle as a training tool but it’s very effective.

 

[mchughcb]

The fact that the DSC1 shooting test is so challenging (to the point of failing) to so many of the people that do it is a good indication that marksPERSONship is maybe not what it should be.

Here is a recap on what the shooting test entails:

• 100 metres 3 shots to be placed into a 4″ circle from prone or simulated high seat.
• 100 metres 2 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette from prone or a simulated high seat.
• 70 metres 2 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette from sitting or kneeling.
• 40 metres 2 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette from standing.

I can tell you from my own organisation accreditation course I had to shoot a minimum calibre 270 Win and 130gr projectile in the following order consecutively.

• 100 metres 3 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette prone
• 75 metres 3 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette sitting or kneeling.
• 50 metres 3 shots into the killing zone on a deer silhouette offhand

on this target

http://images.wholesalehunter.com/prodpics/brchpic34682.jpg

pass rate was about 30%

 

[Dunwaters]

I think the marksmanship problem goes down to lack of practice.
A lot of people seem to do all their practice at the range from a bench or prone with bipod, nothing wrong with that but you need to try sitting , kneeling and offhand too.
Not many people have the opportunity nowadays to spend time plinking rats or bunnies with a rimfire. There's a huge reliance on high seats and quad sticks, very little actual stalking gets done, mostly sit and wait. I've had people that couldn't see that the stump or rock in front of them offered a better rest than the bipod. Then again, given the cost of a days stalking most people are decidedly risk averse when the time to send one down range arrives and want everything to be perfect.
It'll never be perfect, good enough is the best you can hope for.
Stop fiddling with your scope and shoot now please.

 

[Dalua]

The original sporting course of fire at the club here was based on DSC 1, but stretched a little, on the grounds that if you could do it at longer ranges and/or less-supported then shorter ranges and more support, as might be used in the field, should be straightforward. So the cof was shot on a roebuck target thus:
Four rounds at each range
60yds offhand standing
100yds sticks standing
200yds sticks/bipod sitting
300yds bipod prone

Thinking about the word 'need' in the thread title makes one look at this slightly differently. The 'needs' I perceive which this meets both relate to circumstances where the first shot might not have gone as planned:
1. The need to be able to shoot quickly and effectively at closish range when there might not be the opportunity to use sticks, a tree or whatever in support
2. The need to be able to fire an effective second second when a hit beast has moved 50-100yds further away from the Rifle.

Apart from those things, it is clearly very desirable that folk should pass up a shot at a healthy beast when they are not comfortable with their position, the wind or whatever.

Is it reasonable to consider my two points as a 'need' for stalkers, though? If one is out with a professional, of course, that person might well sort out any problem beyond the guest's ability with their own rifle, or the guest's. But should solo stalkers learn and maintain the skills of 1 and 2 above?

 

[bowji john]

It certainly feels very freeing to be confident of an unsupported shot rather than always having to cast about for some sort of structure to act as a rest

I'm glad I made the effort to improve that aspect of my shooting

They are all decaying skills though with a short half life

Regular practice is, for me, the answer

 

[mchughcb]

I enjoy practicing offhand at 100m. Now can I guarantee that I will hit the heart lung region every shot? - No.

That's why I use a 416 Remington when hunting.

 

[Oracle]

It certainly feels very freeing to be confident of an unsupported shot rather than always having to cast about for some sort of structure to act as a rest

I'm glad I made the effort to improve that aspect of my shooting

They are all decaying skills though with a short half life

Regular practice is, for me, the answer

The last sentences in Bowji John's post are spot on.
Below is some advice which I have always remembered.

1. Study and practice the Principles of Marksmanship
2. Consistency is the key
3. Remember - Shooting is a perishable skill
4. Ignore the wind at your peril

 

[diverdave]

I am surprised that all deer stalkers who have access to stalking ground dont have an improvised range where they can practice. I am lucky enough to have a number of places i can stalk and all but one have some form of basic flat bit where i can pop out a target, and we have ranges from 50 to 300 meters to practice on. In most cases it is just an old cardboard box with a stone in it and a printed target taped to it. Like many have mentioned here, i refresh the basic skills using quiet .22 rimfire or an air rifle if noise is an issue. I have spent many a summer afternoon, when any sensible deer is resting up, practicing and testing kit to make sure it suits my requitements. We have good rabbit numbers and the skills can be practiced when reducing the rabbit numbers on the base of the hill, and harvesting them for our game pies. In the largely heather hill and forested enviroment most of my stalking is done on this is done with the longest harris bipod, so it goes down to 9 inches for prone shots to 27 inches (from memory) for sitting shots. This covers probably 75% of my shooting and the full height is needed to get above the rank heather. I have a BT scope and have tested this set up many times at 100, 200, 250 and 300 meters and the BT is bang on, i just need to make sure i get my bit right and we normally aim to stalk to the most stable point we can find, often moving a little to get the right base so we are properly stable. I added in the 250 meter zero point as this became my nemisis range, and without the 250 BT zero i was struggling on some targets, the drop between 200 and 300 was considerable and so i needed the extra drop point, now i find it easy again. In addition i use the 5 leg viperflex sticks, they are the most solid platform i have tried and can be used for zeroing. They are required for some shots and we (my wee stalking group of pals) have all practiced at the 100, 200, 250 and 300 meter improvised ranges. I think all of us have 20-45 years of experience stalking with centre fires and still enjoy a day on our ranges, not just when someone has changed a scope or had a miss or poor shot, but also just when we have some spare time on a stalking day or trip. Its part of the enjoyment for us, and if we have planned a mornings stalking or a day out, and have harvested what we want in a couple of hours then it is fine to spend a little of the allocated time just checking everything is still bang on

 

[Border]

I am surprised that all deer stalkers who have access to stalking ground dont have an improvised range where they can practice. I am lucky enough to have a number of places i can stalk and all but one have some form of basic flat bit where i can pop out a target, and we have ranges from 50 to 300 meters to practice on. In most cases it is just an old cardboard box with a stone in it and a printed target taped to it. Like many have mentioned here, i refresh the basic skills using quiet .22 rimfire or an air rifle if noise is an issue. I have spent many a summer afternoon, when any sensible deer is resting up, practicing and testing kit to make sure it suits my requitements. We have good rabbit numbers and the skills can be practiced when reducing the rabbit numbers on the base of the hill, and harvesting them for our game pies. In the largely heather hill and forested enviroment most of my stalking is done on this is done with the longest harris bipod, so it goes down to 9 inches for prone shots to 27 inches (from memory) for sitting shots. This covers probably 75% of my shooting and the full height is needed to get above the rank heather. I have a BT scope and have tested this set up many times at 100, 200, 250 and 300 meters and the BT is bang on, i just need to make sure i get my bit right and we normally aim to stalk to the most stable point we can find, often moving a little to get the right base so we are properly stable. I added in the 250 meter zero point as this became my nemisis range, and without the 250 BT zero i was struggling on some targets, the drop between 200 and 300 was considerable and so i needed the extra drop point, now i find it easy again. In addition i use the 5 leg viperflex sticks, they are the most solid platform i have tried and can be used for zeroing. They are required for some shots and we (my wee stalking group of pals) have all practiced at the 100, 200, 250 and 300 meter improvised ranges. I think all of us have 20-45 years of experience stalking with centre fires and still enjoy a day on our ranges, not just when someone has changed a scope or had a miss or poor shot, but also just when we have some spare time on a stalking day or trip. Its part of the enjoyment for us, and if we have planned a mornings stalking or a day out, and have harvested what we want in a couple of hours then it is fine to spend a little of the allocated time just checking everything is still bang on

Over here the live game seasons are so short (aug-dec) that in order to become proficient with your rifle you have to practice off season. Saying that most of my mates enjoy Reloading and informal shooting equally as much as hunting.

 

[Ronin]

At the North-West range days, we try and make it as awkward as possible, simulating real positions eg over an angled wall.

I'd like to make one where you walk to the top of the hill and have to shoot within 30s, but I'd be lynched

Something to raise the heart rate would be good to replicate field conditions with shoot / no shoot scenario (timed induced stress for instance)

As Simon said in earlier post the discipline of Precision Rifle Shooting is great practice for stalking

Timed stages / multi position and moved distance all make great practice

There was talk of North West BDS starting their own range at a suitable site - has there been any progress made (when can we start,,,)

 

[Ronin]

I have shot at the Eskdalemuir 2 mile range. Steel targets from improvised positions at ranges between 100 and 1000m under time pressure. All that is needed to compete is a rifle and a diallable scope Or graduated reticle. There is even a separate class for 22lr rifles (50-200 yards). Magazine fed rifles are an advantage but not mandatory. The majority of fullbore stages are shot between 200 and 400 yards with some angled shooting and a number of awkward obstacles to shoot over, under and round. It really is excellent fun and really good training for stalking. Position wise there are a fair number of prone stages but you may be forced to shoot off your non dominant shoulder, kneeling, and standing. There has even been a stage to simulate shooting off a small boat!!

https://m.facebook.com/events/452179515663726

Check out

Precision Rifle League

precisionrifleleague.co.uk

Tiff owns and runs an amazing national comp, soon I believe to become international

Two fantastic sport disciplines at dedicated venues

Looking forward to this years competitions

 

[NickJ]

Something to raise the heart rate would be good to replicate field conditions with shoot / no shoot scenario (timed induced stress for instance)

As Simon said in earlier post the discipline of Precision Rifle Shooting is great practice for stalking

Timed stages / multi position and moved distance all make great practice

There was talk of North West BDS starting their own range at a suitable site - has there been any progress made (when can we start,,,)

We have done 'timed' shots on the BDS NW 'prep for the hill' days where you broke position to simulate taking 3 beasts from a herd.

Buchan still working on new potential range, Greyrigg still OK out to 200m though.

 

[308tikka]

The fact that the DSC1 shooting test is so challenging (to the point of failing) to so many of the people that do it is a good indication that marksPERSONship is maybe not what it should be.

In my opinion the test is so easy that if you fail it you shouldnt be allowed anywhere near live quarry with a firearm.

Where people fail, is lack of preparation in knowing their rifle, loads, scope and in not practising. The rifle will be accurate enough - the shooter's hold when standing off sticks or kneeling/sitting wont be. Position of feet - also called ALIGNMENT is critical.

PRONE: A lot of people are using bags for rear rest (fine for bench rest style shooting - do you have time to do so in the field on moving animals?). the crossed arm supporting the rear stock is a major fault, taken from hollywood films and copied by some in the military (trust me I know what Im talking about here) and elsewhere. Good technique is using left hand to steady the rifle (for right shoulder firer) and not to allow rifle to wobble about. Its called firm hold. I dont use bipos that much - shooting off a bag is superior but learning the WW1 sniper technique copied from Ghillies of sling around left arm and what is called a low position is superior to bipod. Try it sometime. Try doing the entire test offhand - also not that difficult with minimal practice - 4 inches is a large target.

Even the best shooters make mistakes - but they make them far fewer times than the less skilled. If you arent very familiar with your trigger, hand position, eye relief, loads, muzzle flip and the group sizes you will achieve how can you accurately make an assessment on what is an achievable shot ?

I was extremely privileged to learn how to shoot in the cadets and have been fortunate enough to be selected to represent my country in target shooting, travelling overseas as well as major competitions in the UK. Shooting several thousands of rounds every year for far in excess of a decade provides a certain knowledge base, which I pass on by coaching.

Is that amount every year necessary for stalking ? No - but Id suggest 2-3 days a year of 40-50 shots is not onerous. Winter weekend afternoon on Short Siberia, NSC Bisley - £28.50? Split 2/3 ways? Plus 2-3 cartons of ammunition or 40 reloads. This is not expensive compared to that summer roebuck trophy.

I would seriously recommend Nathan Foster's series of books to self educate. Failing that, join a local shooting club even if its rimfire. It will produce dividends.

 

[User00040]

the crossed arm supporting the rear stock is a major fault, taken from hollywood films and copied by some in the military (trust me I know what Im talking about here) and elsewhere. Good technique is using left hand to steady the rifle (for right shoulder firer) and not to allow rifle to wobble about. Its called firm hold.

Could you clarify this please? Possibly with pictures?

Thanks.

 

[scrumbag]

I would agree with a lot of what you say.

"Where people fail, is lack of preparation in knowing their rifle, loads, scope and in not practising"

The issue is, the initial training as, "Practice is implementing and repeating good technique you have been taught"

Problem though, for a growing number, the DSC-1 is their first exposure to rifle shooting.

According to the NRA's annual report, 2018-2019 the number of school's affiliated to the NRA dropped from 42 to 37. In a year. Understand cadet's it's a similar picture of decline. Who's teaching people to shoot?

Also, you talk about knowing your rifle, scope and load. Great. Couldn't agree more. Problem is, quite a lot of people borrow a rifle for DSC-1 as a lot of police forces really want a DSC-1 to grant you a rifle. So for a beginer practicing with your own kit really isn't an option.

I'm not seeking to be overly combative with your very valid points but you've fallen into the trap a lot of us who've been shooting for a while fall into. We forget how difficult it is to get started in rifle shooting if you don't have someone to bring you into it.

ATB,

Scrummy

In my opinion the test is so easy that if you fail it you shouldnt be allowed anywhere near live quarry with a firearm.

Where people fail, is lack of preparation in knowing their rifle, loads, scope and in not practising. The rifle will be accurate enough - the shooter's hold when standing off sticks or kneeling/sitting wont be. Position of feet - also called ALIGNMENT is critical.

PRONE: A lot of people are using bags for rear rest (fine for bench rest style shooting - do you have time to do so in the field on moving animals?). the crossed arm supporting the rear stock is a major fault, taken from hollywood films and copied by some in the military (trust me I know what Im talking about here) and elsewhere. Good technique is using left hand to steady the rifle (for right shoulder firer) and not to allow rifle to wobble about. Its called firm hold. I dont use bipos that much - shooting off a bag is superior but learning the WW1 sniper technique copied from Ghillies of sling around left arm and what is called a low position is superior to bipod. Try it sometime. Try doing the entire test offhand - also not that difficult with minimal practice - 4 inches is a large target.

Even the best shooters make mistakes - but they make them far fewer times than the less skilled. If you arent very familiar with your trigger, hand position, eye relief, loads, muzzle flip and the group sizes you will achieve how can you accurately make an assessment on what is an achievable shot ?

I was extremely privileged to learn how to shoot in the cadets and have been fortunate enough to be selected to represent my country in target shooting, travelling overseas as well as major competitions in the UK. Shooting several thousands of rounds every year for far in excess of a decade provides a certain knowledge base, which I pass on by coaching.

Is that amount every year necessary for stalking ? No - but Id suggest 2-3 days a year of 40-50 shots is not onerous. Winter weekend afternoon on Short Siberia, NSC Bisley - £28.50? Split 2/3 ways? Plus 2-3 cartons of ammunition or 40 reloads. This is not expensive compared to that summer roebuck trophy.

I would seriously recommend Nathan Foster's series of books to self educate. Failing that, join a local shooting club even if its rimfire. It will produce dividends.

 

[Lateral]

I'm happy with the way I shoot off the Viperflex sticks, but I'm dreadful at deploying them quickly, but I'm very comfortable shooting free hand, with an appropriate rifle, and distance, which I'm sure is down to the amount of driven boar I hunt. I can only recall using a bipod once in the UK, the land I shoot is very flat, where now, I don't even bother carrying one.

My hunting is for fun, if I don't have a comfortable shot, I'd rather walk away, than risk just injuring the animal.

I have found that nearly all the people who offer stalking in the UK, are very anti shooting free hand.

 

[mchughcb]

In my opinion the test is so easy that if you fail it you shouldnt be allowed anywhere near live quarry with a firearm.

Where people fail, is lack of preparation in knowing their rifle, loads, scope and in not practising. The rifle will be accurate enough - the shooter's hold when standing off sticks or kneeling/sitting wont be. Position of feet - also called ALIGNMENT is critical.

PRONE: A lot of people are using bags for rear rest (fine for bench rest style shooting - do you have time to do so in the field on moving animals?). the crossed arm supporting the rear stock is a major fault, taken from hollywood films and copied by some in the military (trust me I know what Im talking about here) and elsewhere. Good technique is using left hand to steady the rifle (for right shoulder firer) and not to allow rifle to wobble about. Its called firm hold. I dont use bipos that much - shooting off a bag is superior but learning the WW1 sniper technique copied from Ghillies of sling around left arm and what is called a low position is superior to bipod. Try it sometime. Try doing the entire test offhand - also not that difficult with minimal practice - 4 inches is a large target.

Even the best shooters make mistakes - but they make them far fewer times than the less skilled. If you arent very familiar with your trigger, hand position, eye relief, loads, muzzle flip and the group sizes you will achieve how can you accurately make an assessment on what is an achievable shot ?

I was extremely privileged to learn how to shoot in the cadets and have been fortunate enough to be selected to represent my country in target shooting, travelling overseas as well as major competitions in the UK. Shooting several thousands of rounds every year for far in excess of a decade provides a certain knowledge base, which I pass on by coaching.

Is that amount every year necessary for stalking ? No - but Id suggest 2-3 days a year of 40-50 shots is not onerous. Winter weekend afternoon on Short Siberia, NSC Bisley - £28.50? Split 2/3 ways? Plus 2-3 cartons of ammunition or 40 reloads. This is not expensive compared to that summer roebuck trophy.

I would seriously recommend Nathan Foster's series of books to self educate. Failing that, join a local shooting club even if its rimfire. It will produce dividends.

Any practice is better than no practice. You can hit consecutive shots at 100m on a 4" target offhand with a deer calibre hunting rifle easily? Well thats excellent shooting for a hunter. I base that opinion on shooting competition with hunters who compete world wide in big game rifle competitions.

Maybe you could make a video of shooting say 14 consecutive shots offhand with a 308 hunting rifle into a 4 inch target at 100m and post it on this thread. 14 is our standard detail for our hunting rifle competition. That would be great to see your technique and setup to show the noobies.

 

[Ronin]

We have done 'timed' shots on the BDS NW 'prep for the hill' days where you broke position to simulate taking 3 beasts from a herd.

Buchan still working on new potential range, Greyrigg still OK out to 200m though.

Cheers Nick, lets hope the new range comes off, preferably sooner than later

 

[bowji john]

Any practice is better than no practice. You can hit consecutive shots at 100m on a 4" target offhand with a deer calibre hunting rifle easily? Well thats excellent shooting for a hunter. I base that opinion on shooting competition with hunters who compete world wide in big game rifle competitions.

Maybe you could make a video of shooting say 14 consecutive shots offhand with a 308 hunting rifle into a 4 inch target at 100m and post it on this thread. 14 is our standard detail for our hunting rifle competition. That would be great to see your technique and setup to show the noobies.

Was doing that very thing today with .22LR

Out of 50 rounds I hit the 4" a total of 9 times off hand at 100m

Don't think I'm going to win any championships

 

[mchughcb]

Not sure I practiced at 100m offhand with a 22LR but I used to shoot competition offhand at 50m with 22LR hunting rifle and what I learnt was being about 40mm high while off a benchrest was about spot on for offhand. And 40mm high at 100m with a centrefire meant offhand you were on target too. I guess its to do with the slight downward pressure as you pull the trigger. Most of my rifles have a 1.5lb trigger. Continually shooting a bigger recoiling gun will also reduce accuracy as fatigue takes its toll. So I'm keen to see 308tikka's technique when he has the time.