kennyc
Well-Known Member
I believe there are a couple but the vast majority are 300m as that is the traditional Swiss competition/army qualification distance
Need for higher standards of marksmanship?
- Thread starter User00040
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Yes that's my understanding too. They have got some great facilities with clubhouses, restaurants and bars on site. Just what you need after a shoot
Hi,
This thread has been quite interesting to read through and has made me think about all the different skills a deer stalker may need or find useful in different situations. Some time ago I posted a tread about learning to shoot a moving target as an emergency backup skill which I got very mixed reactions to (I am still yet to start learning this but am very keen to soon). Another useful backup in my mind is being able to shoot at longer distances should a situation arise that a longer than normal shot is needed if a first hasn't gone to plan. Should we be learning to shoot past our own normal ranges using targets so we know what our kit can do if we ever need it? (I have been learning how to use my stalking kit further out but still have a lot to learn and practice to do but it has given me a better understanding of my kit in a safe environment and at ranges beyond what I will ever shoot living quarry at).
The posts that have got me thinking the most are the ones about shooting without a rest, this is another skill I hadn't previously given much thought to as in 10 years I have only shot 2 deer freehand, both at short ranges. It's not something that I would do out of choice but I think this would be a good skill to have should a situation arise that I don't have a rest and need to dispatch an animal.
I am going to have a go at shooting at 100 yards freehand with my 308 at a 4 inch circle and see what I can do. I will post a picture of my results (if I even hit the target), I won't make any changes to my kit from my normal stalking setup, so mod nd bipod will be on so its a fair test of what I could do in the field. Is anyone else willing to give it a try and post results up for comparison?
I hope if nothing else this improves my marksmanship as I feel the more skills we learn the better equipped we are in the field.
Thanks
Dave
This thread has been quite interesting to read through and has made me think about all the different skills a deer stalker may need or find useful in different situations. Some time ago I posted a tread about learning to shoot a moving target as an emergency backup skill which I got very mixed reactions to (I am still yet to start learning this but am very keen to soon). Another useful backup in my mind is being able to shoot at longer distances should a situation arise that a longer than normal shot is needed if a first hasn't gone to plan. Should we be learning to shoot past our own normal ranges using targets so we know what our kit can do if we ever need it? (I have been learning how to use my stalking kit further out but still have a lot to learn and practice to do but it has given me a better understanding of my kit in a safe environment and at ranges beyond what I will ever shoot living quarry at).
The posts that have got me thinking the most are the ones about shooting without a rest, this is another skill I hadn't previously given much thought to as in 10 years I have only shot 2 deer freehand, both at short ranges. It's not something that I would do out of choice but I think this would be a good skill to have should a situation arise that I don't have a rest and need to dispatch an animal.
I am going to have a go at shooting at 100 yards freehand with my 308 at a 4 inch circle and see what I can do. I will post a picture of my results (if I even hit the target), I won't make any changes to my kit from my normal stalking setup, so mod nd bipod will be on so its a fair test of what I could do in the field. Is anyone else willing to give it a try and post results up for comparison?
I hope if nothing else this improves my marksmanship as I feel the more skills we learn the better equipped we are in the field.
Thanks
Dave
Tried to do a video today to put on here of my off hand practice @ 100m
Sent a drone down range to witness all the many hits I was going to get
Needn't have bothered - missed every shot
Sent a drone down range to witness all the many hits I was going to get
Needn't have bothered - missed every shot
Jagare
Well-Known Member
The single stick worked for me for woodland stalking. I've only had 2 sticks since i started stalking. The first one was a honeysuckle damage curly ash stick that i used for many years till i took of the bottom foot by trapping it in the sliding door of my transit van. I still have its hazel successor. Mine stop me falling over all the time as I've always been top heavy. I have bought one of those fancy German mono.sticks that folds down for travelling.
It has attractions, but we have to be careful of the laws of unintended consequences. We have one of the lowest accident rates in europe and certainly better than most of the countries which insist on tests and stuff.
David.
Jagare
Well-Known Member
We don't have yearly testing in Sweden. Some hunting teams want their members to do the running moose test too bronze medal standard. Most can manage that, but even my dog could pass that.
There seems to be a lot of excuses why people don't put in the practice. They don't want to wear out the barrel shooting at targets, ammo is expensive., they don't have a range within 10 minutes of their house, blah , blah, blah. How come the modern stalker has money for the latest rifle and scope and all the gadgets that go with stalking. Not even mentioning night, thermal vision that as we all know costs next to nothing. Then of course there is the 4x4 must have and they are cheap to run
. Shooting must be the only sport where for some don't have to put in any practice to be a competent shot. Must be great to be so naturally gifted.
I've never been a rich man but stalking, hunting has been my hobby for 55 years. I lead a frugal life on a limited pension and still manage to put in plenty of practice down the range and a few comps over the summer. Shooting on the range is fun . Why would i spend my money on a driven day and not give good account of my self.
You owe it to the living creature you are hunting to give it a quick clean death .
Took a similar long stick along two weeks ago when retrieving a deer, the peat bog I needed to cover was so soft the stick would sink over a foot in the soft ground... on good ground or hill they are great.
edi
There seems to be little evidence to suggest that there is any problem with shooter safety in this country. Thankfully, there are very few accidents with firearms in this country. That must be substantially a result of the culture around shooting. Change that culture, and you risk undoing that. As with just about any other area where the state regulates, you then create a problem where the testers/regulators themselves are incompetent or not sufficiently expert. We do not have a body of public employees with the competence to run such a scheme. It certainly does not create a level playing field. We don't have a level playing field on licensing, and we don't even have a level playing field on driving licences. It's fanciful to presume that mandatory testing will result in shooters all meeting the standard you might desire.
As a general principle, the less bureaucracy, the better.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Lowest rates or lowest numbers. I would have thought there are buckets load more hunters per capita with centrefire rifles outside the UK.
Happy to be proven wrong.
Ill see what I can do. Timelines wont be good for a while.
I do shoot internationally and have represented GBR. One of the major differences - outlined in Nathan Foster's articles below which I highly recommend - is that people use all sorts of techniques suitable for heavy barreled and heavy stocked firearms = less recoil. Techniques for lighter barreled and hunting profile rifles does require good technique. The good thing is - it can be learnt, and practiced.
Ill post a pic of my last deer test all at 100m later on, prone, sitting standing.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
I'd prefer a video of one continuous take of you shooting a hunting rifle (minimum calibre 270 win) offhand at 100 yards easily putting 9 consecutive shots into a 4" circle or at least a continuous take during firing plus a take of you examing the target. We are not allowed to use slings in our accreditation either. However if you feel you need a sling go for it.
I personally think it will be hard as last week i saw a guy come close with 14 shots but he is one of the best shots in the land and represented the nation overseas so I am keen to see your technique.
I personally think it will be hard as last week i saw a guy come close with 14 shots but he is one of the best shots in the land and represented the nation overseas so I am keen to see your technique.
Like I said, I dont have the time, or equipment and there are youtube channels dedicated to texhnique. However your insistence on ‘continuous video’ implies that you dont believe me.
Your standards are your standards- perhaps you shouldnt judge other people by them. I travelled to Australia to compete against your finest. I won one competition at 500yards at the Australian National Champs with a 50.10 (and 4 super Vs) which would have been a 60.4 on F Class and beat all the F’ers with their fancy rests and wildcat chambering not the standard 308win I used.
I know what Im talking about when it comes to rifle marksmanship and dont really need to prove anything to you or to a standard you deem worthy. I do try to help others when they take it in the spirit its given.
In the attached image is a simple example of not really trying too hard on the UK version of a deer marksmanship test. To be honest I was a bit disappointed my POI werent closer together but happy with the 2shot groups at 100yards. Its not that hard.
Your standards are your standards- perhaps you shouldnt judge other people by them. I travelled to Australia to compete against your finest. I won one competition at 500yards at the Australian National Champs with a 50.10 (and 4 super Vs) which would have been a 60.4 on F Class and beat all the F’ers with their fancy rests and wildcat chambering not the standard 308win I used.
I know what Im talking about when it comes to rifle marksmanship and dont really need to prove anything to you or to a standard you deem worthy. I do try to help others when they take it in the spirit its given.
In the attached image is a simple example of not really trying too hard on the UK version of a deer marksmanship test. To be honest I was a bit disappointed my POI werent closer together but happy with the 2shot groups at 100yards. Its not that hard.
Attachments
Interesting to see three distinct groups there. I'm almost tempted to suggest you should consider a "cold & clean" zero! But then realised I have no idea of where within the 10-ring you were aiming or if the prone were the first to be shot:
K
I've seen a similar effect with 4 pairs of shots taken, prone, off elbows, sitting and standing. It demonstrates that changing your position will subtly change the point of impact. The shooting above is excellent.
Best regards
JCS
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Here are the two guides I used while shooting at Camp Perry, Ohio, USA.
Whoops the files are too large for SD, download them yourself..
Whoops the files are too large for SD, download them yourself..
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Hardly surprising that different shooting positions change point of impact, so will shooting right or left handed. Key is to be aware of this and frankly to be within a range that it has no effect on the outcome. Personally I feel pretty comfortable shooting offhand at 50 to 60 metres. I have practised enough to know that I can hit the kill zone of a Roe. And I have taken the odd deer off hand when it has been close. But I also know that I am much steadier taking a shot from a supported position using sticks, bag, fence post of whatever. I frequently don't carry a stick on my own ground as I know it well and where most of the good leaning posts are. Equally I am under no real pressure to meet large cull targets so can pass up shots which I am not comfortable with.
Rather that necessarily raising concern over poor level of skill in marksmanship much much more emphasis needs to be placed on shooting well within ones limits, and really understanding the adverse effect that wind etc can have on a bullet. A perfectly crossing 10 mph wind will blow most bullets an inch or two at 100m. Thats not going to affect things much. Take that out to 200m - thats two to four inches. On a Roe that's the difference between a kill shot or one through the liver. Take the wind to 20mph (which is not really mush more than a slight buffet) you double the effect. Get a wind swirling across the mountain side gusting 30 to 50 mph and it is starting to take real skill to have a clue where the bullet will impact. Yet we hear frequently of Mr Nimrod with his tacticool 6.5 megablaster trying to shoot deer on open ground at 200m plus in the midst of storm Dennis. Yes there are those who are out all day and everyday who can do this, but for most amateur stalkers - work within your limits, and for those who are guiding, please recognise this limits, because that poor sod of a client has to spend most of his time earning the funds to allow him to come out and enjoy and pay for a guided stalk.
Rather that necessarily raising concern over poor level of skill in marksmanship much much more emphasis needs to be placed on shooting well within ones limits, and really understanding the adverse effect that wind etc can have on a bullet. A perfectly crossing 10 mph wind will blow most bullets an inch or two at 100m. Thats not going to affect things much. Take that out to 200m - thats two to four inches. On a Roe that's the difference between a kill shot or one through the liver. Take the wind to 20mph (which is not really mush more than a slight buffet) you double the effect. Get a wind swirling across the mountain side gusting 30 to 50 mph and it is starting to take real skill to have a clue where the bullet will impact. Yet we hear frequently of Mr Nimrod with his tacticool 6.5 megablaster trying to shoot deer on open ground at 200m plus in the midst of storm Dennis. Yes there are those who are out all day and everyday who can do this, but for most amateur stalkers - work within your limits, and for those who are guiding, please recognise this limits, because that poor sod of a client has to spend most of his time earning the funds to allow him to come out and enjoy and pay for a guided stalk.
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