Odders
Well-Known Member
I'd love to be able to use an 1895 in .357mag for close range stalking. No way is it an ineffectual round but the rules...
243 legal??
- Thread starter jb7x57
- Start date
I'd love to be able to use an 1895 in .357mag for close range stalking. No way is it an ineffectual round but the rules...
8x57
Distinguished Member
That would be a rare rifle as the 1895 (Winchester presumably) was chambered for rifle cartridges and not pistol cartridges. I think you probably meant 1894.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree. The 357 all but matches 30/30 in performance too!
Dumb laws and experts.....
8x57
Distinguished Member
Quite a difference between the .30-30 and the humble .357magnum.
The lawmakers may not have got it entirely right but they had to draw the line somewhere so I think it's a bit unfair to simply dismiss them as dumb. They obviously based the laws on their knowledge and experience at that time.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
The 357 from a rifle is snapping at the heels of a 30/30. There is nothing humble about it unless you load it for fun at the range.
At the time as you put it. Deer were being taken with similar and lesser cartridges and they worked just fine. The current laws are typical of Britain, an arse covering exercise.
Give me a choice of stalking woodland roe with a 357 or a 243.....I will take the 357 always.
8x57
Distinguished Member
"The 357 from a rifle is snapping at the heels of a 30/30."
Comparisons taken from the 12th edition of Cartridges of the World.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet typical pistol load velocity of 1200 f.p.s. producing 505 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet 20-24" rifle barrel velocity of 1650 f.p.s. producing 955 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet 20-24" rifle barrel velocity of 2000 f.p.s. producing 1403 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.30-30 Winchester 150 grn bullet velocity of 2450 f.p.s. and producing 1995 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
A difference of 592 ft/lb of energy between the hottest .357magnum load in rifle and a standard .30-30 load isn't exactly snapping at the heels in my view.
I'm not even remotely suggesting that a .357 can't kill deer because it can and often does elsewhere, but it doesn't even come close to achieving the required energy levels in England and Wales for larger deer species. So given the choice between a .357 rifle and a .243 rifle I would stick to the .243win.
P.S. Just to indicate that I not prejudiced against pistol calibre rifles, I've owned three .357mag rifles previously, and also a .44mag rifle that was approved for stalking. The .44mag was clearly the better cartridge but I never became a huge fan of under levers despite using them a fair bit for the best part of ten years.
Comparisons taken from the 12th edition of Cartridges of the World.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet typical pistol load velocity of 1200 f.p.s. producing 505 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet 20-24" rifle barrel velocity of 1650 f.p.s. producing 955 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.357 magnum 158 grn bullet 20-24" rifle barrel velocity of 2000 f.p.s. producing 1403 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
.30-30 Winchester 150 grn bullet velocity of 2450 f.p.s. and producing 1995 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
A difference of 592 ft/lb of energy between the hottest .357magnum load in rifle and a standard .30-30 load isn't exactly snapping at the heels in my view.
I'm not even remotely suggesting that a .357 can't kill deer because it can and often does elsewhere, but it doesn't even come close to achieving the required energy levels in England and Wales for larger deer species. So given the choice between a .357 rifle and a .243 rifle I would stick to the .243win.
P.S. Just to indicate that I not prejudiced against pistol calibre rifles, I've owned three .357mag rifles previously, and also a .44mag rifle that was approved for stalking. The .44mag was clearly the better cartridge but I never became a huge fan of under levers despite using them a fair bit for the best part of ten years.
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Odders
Well-Known Member
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Ok.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
That's because they like to get the facts and not just listen to an expert.
Just get a creedmoor
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Swede he meant....
I was stirring but for balance get one of each, I have
Indeed Creedless, Swedemore!
Or even .260Rem.
Why would anyone want a 6.5mm case with so little room for powder. I just don't get it.
Mind you, I don't like two-button jackets and low-rise trousers either.
North Stalker
Well-Known Member
I can't see this being true. You could trial them in England and be legal, unless the Law has changed (in Scotland) which I don't think it has, these people are breaking the Law. I'm sure the people will have thought this also.
All this really means is that folk will have to buy a proper gun. Who buys a .243 when they need 100gr? It's like buying a Ford Fiesta and expecting it to cruise at 100mph on the autobahn. Sure most Ford Fiestas that will do that, but it'll be a lot more comfortable to do it in a Mustang.
Now I'll get endless grief for my comment but that's nothing new. I haven't said the .243 isn't humane or that it isn't enough gun, it's just not designed for optimal performance with the specification for ammunition which is laid out in the deer act. If you want a little gun because you can't take recoil, buy a 6.5x55 (that's what I use). If you want it to shoot flat buy a .25-06 or .270. Any of those are designed to shoot a minimum of 100gr bullet without even flinching! Using a .243 in Scotland is like flogging a dead horse. It's possible, but why go to the bother of trying to get it to shoot when you could buy something that just works without all the fuss?
Now I'll get endless grief for my comment but that's nothing new. I haven't said the .243 isn't humane or that it isn't enough gun, it's just not designed for optimal performance with the specification for ammunition which is laid out in the deer act. If you want a little gun because you can't take recoil, buy a 6.5x55 (that's what I use). If you want it to shoot flat buy a .25-06 or .270. Any of those are designed to shoot a minimum of 100gr bullet without even flinching! Using a .243 in Scotland is like flogging a dead horse. It's possible, but why go to the bother of trying to get it to shoot when you could buy something that just works without all the fuss?
More utter nonsense from @njc110381!
Of course you do actually know that Winchester designed the .243 for the two bullets they released with the rifle, a 100gr and 80gr softpoint flat base very similar to the Sierra ProHunter. You’re just playing silly buggers, eh.
Of course you do actually know that Winchester designed the .243 for the two bullets they released with the rifle, a 100gr and 80gr softpoint flat base very similar to the Sierra ProHunter. You’re just playing silly buggers, eh.
If you like @njc110381 you can read up on all of this on here because I took on a couple of Internet experts about the 243 a year or two ago, and went to some lengths to demonstrate through historical evidence how gleefully misinformed they were.
Search for “Warren Page” and my handle, all will be revealed...
Search for “Warren Page” and my handle, all will be revealed...
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