DSC 1 - how does it work?

Interestingly I wonder if the OP had given fox as his good reason to acquire .243 whether he would be required to take any relevant course(s). He has experience of using his rimfire, has experience of using firearms in the military and clearly can identify safe backstop. Does not the guidance say “experience is not calibre specific” and with regard to deer that “applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.” Quite sure he ticks both those boxes. As regards mentoring, it would be interesting to know from the OP whether a named mentor was to be included in his FAC conditions.
 
DSC 1 and the need for it are a divisive topic to say the least. I think if you’re new it’s a good thing to both do and have. We live in a world where like it or not, the need to have various bits of paper to permit us to undertake a whole range of activities is the norm. My force (Wilts) weren’t too fussed and just added a photocopy of my DSC1 certificate to my file. They were more interested in the military quals I had obtained in the past. If I were in your shoes I’d do the DSC1, but I’d also speak with your FEO and see what they say/how much they weight having it as a positive when considering an application.
 
"In addition, I would be doing paid stalks in the future"

It is somewhat ambiguous.

I read it as the OP would be going on paid stalks in the future, but it could equally be read as planning to offer paid stalks in the future.

Well if its paid stalks with a good guide then he will hopefully learn a bit whilst out. But taking into account 4 outings this will easily equate as a rule to paying for a 3 day Level 1 course, in which he will no doubt learn a great deal more.
 
Why do we in the same breath, speak of “Weapons”, then “Firearms licensing“, why not “Weapons licensing” .... seems we lose sight of the importance of one description weighed against the other.
 
"In addition, I would be doing paid stalks in the future"

It is somewhat ambiguous.

I read it as the OP would be going on paid stalks in the future, but it could equally be read as planning to offer paid stalks in the future.


Sorry this was not clear. I have no intention in taking out clients, only to pay for a days stalking in other areas as and when.
 
I want to thank you all for your comments, it really is invaluable to hear your thoughts.

I have no issue doing a DSC 1. I have no issue having a mentor. Its just about finding the right route.

Thanks again.
 
Interestingly I wonder if the OP had given fox as his good reason to acquire .243 whether he would be required to take any relevant course(s). He has experience of using his rimfire, has experience of using firearms in the military and clearly can identify safe backstop. Does not the guidance say “experience is not calibre specific” and with regard to deer that “applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.” Quite sure he ticks both those boxes. As regards mentoring, it would be interesting to know from the OP whether a named mentor was to be included in his FAC conditions.

I’m not sure that’s necessarily the best example to cite.

For example:
  • Are there statutory close seasons for foxes?
  • Legal restrictions in terms of the calibre or ammunition you can shoot them with?
  • Can you sell your foxes and put them into the human food chain?
  • Is there a bunch of legislation related specifically to foxes as there is with deer?

Maybe there is a valid reason why the criteria the FEO is asking for in respect of “good reason” for deer is more demanding than that for foxes?
 
I want to thank you all for your comments, it really is invaluable to hear your thoughts.

I have no issue doing a DSC 1. I have no issue having a mentor. Its just about finding the right route.

Thanks again.

The route is likely to be different for all of us. It is all down to individual circumstances and making your own luck I think...being open to what turns up, and making the best of it.

As far as I was concerned any information whether from formal course, lunchtime time chat whilst beating, even SD (!) was hoovered up...still is come to that.

Alan
 
Sorry Willie, have to disagree.

This is about safe use of firearms with regard to public safety. Clearly the OP has been deemed safe to acquire and use a rimfire for destruction of vermin. If they are now questioning his safety with regard to a deer legal calibre, or insisted on a named mentor, why did they grant him an FAC in the first place. Surely he cannot be deemed unsafe with the calibre he is applying but be safe with the calibre he already possesses. Logic within some forces in respect of a Firearms Licensing appears to have slipped back.....The OP had obviously done his research and chosen a deer legal calibre along with appropriate ammunition that will be deer legal for the species he wishes to shoot. In my view they are seeking to apply conditions in respect of the welfare of the quarry, which in 40 years of policing, many in operational and firearms licensing roles, I have never come across in the Guidance
 
Sorry Willie, have to disagree.

This is about safe use of firearms with regard to public safety. Clearly the OP has been deemed safe to acquire and use a rimfire for destruction of vermin. If they are now questioning his safety with regard to a deer legal calibre, or insisted on a named mentor, why did they grant him an FAC in the first place. Surely he cannot be deemed unsafe with the calibre he is applying but be safe with the calibre he already possesses. Logic within some forces in respect of a Firearms Licensing appears to have slipped back.....The OP had obviously done his research and chosen a deer legal calibre along with appropriate ammunition that will be deer legal for the species he wishes to shoot. In my view they are seeking to apply conditions in respect of the welfare of the quarry, which in 40 years of policing, many in operational and firearms licensing roles, I have never come across in the Guidance

Very true a .17 hmr can do a lots of damage if in the wrong hands...
 
Oracle is right..this is ALL about demonstrating how public safety demands can be managed.

I think there's a few dangerous precedents being discussed that are used time and time again as evidence backing "good reason" but which in themselves are not requirements in law. I'm referring specifically to:

  1. Obtaining DSC1 (or any other quali come to that)
  2. Mentoring
Neither are, nor ever have been legal requirements and no authority can refuse on the grounds that either condition is not being met. However, both remain good evidence to back up experience and training which is why they are mentioned. The police are placed in a difficult position when deciding to grant where the person's experience is an unknown but the sheer levels of ignorance and lack of ballistics knowledge on the part of some forces means that they equate larger CF calibres as equalling greater risk. We all know that a 223 can travel 1000 yds and kill someone, or likely travel a mile and do the same if it comes down out of the sky onto someone's bonce. The same can be said for 22LR though as proved by the tragic case in Co. Fermanagh, just outside Enniskellen a a few years ago. It is fair to say that higher energy CF's do pose a greater risk in certain conditions such as no backstop being present, where the projectile is likely to travel further than any RF in the event of a miss or pass through.

I go back to my earlier point that as far as the police are concerned, it is not they that really control the application, it is the applicant and the quicker the shooting community wake up to this, the more that organisations such as BASC can do to further education on application matters instead of perhaps taking the confrontational route and arguing points of law. The place for actually arguing those is the courts and the CC's know this so are bound not to unreasonably refuse anyone of good standing the right of an FAC providing good reason is evidenced.

We get back to evidence. Myself, the OP and many others on here have military backgrounds but shooting on ranges counts for nothing when considering the open countryside where you are on your own with no RO supervising proceedings. It is for that reason that the authorities simple wish to see some sort of evidence to support applications to put them at ease as they cannot have personal knowledge of the applicant. The fact that an FAC was granted in the first place for a rimfire has to count for a lot in terms of safe handling. If they had not been satisfied that the applicant was safe to roam with a rimfire then one could argue "what's the difference if backstops are used?". That being the case then show them that by a) offering tho walk the permission with the feo describing where a shot might or might not be safe wrt backstops, boundaries, farm workers, buildings, plant and machinery and public access and what steps you would take to ensure the shot was safe. This is practical demonstration of the proper assessment or risk.

Put that to paper on the application and note that the FEO (if he agrees and has the time) walks the permission with you. You can also chat to the FEO on the way round and show that you do have good CF knowledge and understand the risks although it has to be said that in terms of muzzle awareness is shouldn't matter what the firearm is, the same controls should be observed. I did this for mine and it was the evidence presented to the licencing manager by the FEO that swung things in my favour. You have to be proactive and demonstrate these things. Do that, add in the need in terms of controlling vermin or managing deer (and here it also helps to show some understanding of the Deer Act ) and you should get your variation. You would be unreasonably refused if turned down after all these things were demonstrated and then is probably an appropriate time to challenge in the courts but I very much doubt it would happen if you ticked these boxes.

As Malc suggests, the backing evidence through courses etc may cost you a little but lets be honest...your cheapest scope is likely to cost as much if not more than the cost of a course, let alone mounts, moderators, bipods, sticks, NV etc, plus is way cheaper and easier as a way in than obtaining a certificate on the continent.
 
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The problem I see is Dsc 1 doesn’t demonstrate “ experiance “ not at all not even a little bit ..... you can very easily pass Dsc 1 having never laid eyes on a deer and many do .
 
So far as I am aware no one has suggested here that DSC1 should be a precedent, dangerous or otherwise, to obtaining a deer-legal rifle. In fact it has been diligently pointed out that this is absolutely NOT the case. Arguments about this are as old as the hills, and I don’t see what value is to be had trying to turn this thread into another such debate.

In my first post I pointed out to the OP that he had two options when it comes to how he might approach being given approval, and that different people here would advocate these two different positions. There would be those who would focus their attention on his legal “rights”, and those who would focus on the reason why he wanted it in the first place, i.e. “deer stalking”.

It is strangely gratifying to see this so nicely illustrated by the subsequent posts!
 
OP do you belong to any shooting organisations? If not join one and solicit their help, the British deer society or BASC.
 
The problem I see is Dsc 1 doesn’t demonstrate “ experiance “ not at all not even a little bit ..... you can very easily pass Dsc 1 having never laid eyes on a deer and many do .

People do fail Level 1. Many do pass, and some, not the majority might not have grassed or seen a deer before. But then someone who obtains an FAC for the first time might also have never grassed or seen a deer before.
I had a client this past Sunday afternoon. Never shot a deer before. He shoots paper targets so has an FAC, but admitted he knows nothing about deer and stalking. For him to change his ticket he has been requested to take Level 1.
He got a nice 4 point cull buck with me.
 
I once assisted with the running of the shooting tests of a DSC1 course run by the Deer Initiative. Of the eight or nine candidates on the course, two had never shot any sort of rifle previously, and several of the candidates had never ever seen a wild deer. One experienced shooter who had stalked several times over the years was sent home following a negligent discharge and the others all eventually passed the shooting test even if the examiner did every thing for them bar actually pull the trigger.

Take from this what you will but I can say for certain that all the candidates regardless of previous shooting or stalking experience or not, went home having a greater knowledge of deer and stalking than when they arrived.
 
The police are not interested in deer nor anyone's experience with stalking (other than demonstrating experience), and are not suggesting DSC1 for any element of deer knowledge. It's purely that it sets basic standards for safe handling of a CF rifle which is then tested and accredited. It also demonstrates at least some solidarity with the claimed purpose being for control of deer (ie good reason) hence the support of many authorities for this. All of them would acknowledge though that it proves nothing. It is simply one recognised accreditation for safe handling which I guess is better than nothing but I fail to see why some push it for those already proficient with rimfires and experienced with them. The stalking issues and proficiency really are a completely separate topic of discussion other than deer control being one "Good Reason". If a person wishes to exercise their right to an FAC after demonstrating that they are of good character and have good reason but are not interested in Deer control but lets say in fox and rabbit control, where longer distance humane shots are taken, then it remains for them to evidence suitability. How they do that is up to them but the days of insisting on mentoring or DSC1 being requirements (as indeed they were with some forces) should long be thing of the past. Not that either are a bad things in their own right.
 
People do fail Level 1. Many do pass, and some, not the majority might not have grassed or seen a deer before. But then someone who obtains an FAC for the first time might also have never grassed or seen a deer before.
At the time I did my DSC1 I'd seen some deer in Colwyn Bay zoo, and that was about it. Very glad I did the course! Interestingly, I found the exams very easy, whereas some of the experienced stalkers on the course really seemed to struggle. I also passed the shooting test in 9 shots, which very few of the other participants managed to do, despite their years of experience.
I think I was like a sponge, just eagerly soaking up the knowledge without any preconceptions or prejudices. While experience gained in the field will always be most valuable, the DSC1 course is a great foundation stone to build upon.
That said, it's not a legal requirement, and until such time as it is I don't think that police forces should be insisting upon it. Encouraging perhaps, but not insisting.
 
Many of you may have thought CC Andy Marsh, the previous lead on ACPO FELWG failed to deliver, but he certainly tried to change some aspects of Firearms Licensing. One of his recommendations in the attached is now standard practice. The other recommendation has regressed back into that “comfort blanket” some Firearms Licensing Departments need to cuddle
 

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