Guardian - Golden Eagle Tag found near Grousemoor - who are these idiots ?

[jer]

Indeed birds do die from many causes, but then the tag would not die with the bird so then both would be found and cause of death established would it not?
Clearly cutting the tags aerial and wrapping it in lead sheeting is an attempt to ensure it is not found.

So if you would want to hide your crime wouldn’t it be much simpler to smash the transmitter and arial with a hammer or burn it away from the site of the crime that is nowhere near your grouse moore. To wrap it in lead and allow it’s later discovery just smacks of a setup more than a serious attempt to hide a crime.

 

[Old melv]

Alot of these stories come out in the grouse shooting season very convenient for the anties.
We should be quick to condem wildlife crime and quicker to highlight the good we do for wildlife and the environment.

 

[Apthorpe]

My motive is if we do have rotten apples among us committing these crimes against raptors they need stopping as clearly it brings the whole of shooting into disrepute and more and more regulation are then likely.
The likes of WJ and Avery are unlikely to give up and walk away and they continue to gain more and more support.

........not least from the likes of you helping them in their entirely dishonest campaign to ignore facts and the basics of law and justice.

 

[Border]

The local jungle drums have been expecting this one to come out. Thought was August 12, but it seems to have been delayed....

Delays due to C19??

 

[jer]

Are we really saying the people who want to protect these raptors will kill them and plant evidence such that they can then use it to campaign to regulate or ban dgs? Possible I guess.

Not possible? Probable and likely is closer to the truth

 

[VSS]

Are we really saying the people who want to protect these raptors will kill them and plant evidence such that they can then use it to campaign to regulate or ban dgs? Possible I guess.

No, I do not say that they will kill them. But when a bird with a transmitter dies (maybe miles from any grouse moor and maybe due to natural causes or misadventure) its body can be located, kept in someone's freezer until an opportune moment for it to be conveniently "found" in an incriminating location at a politically appropriate time (eg, just before the start of the shooting season, or when a particular estate is already under scrutiny).
Or, as I mentioned before, the bird may never have existed. Just the tag.
I do believe it would not be beyond the likes of Avery to do this. He is clearly on a mission and will go to any extreme, I think, to achieve his goal.

 

[kes]

Whoever and under whatever circumstances ANY bird of prey is found dead near any shoot should be investigated thoroughly to establish beyond opinion, the facts. Anti's might have done this, it is rather more likely someone else did but lets not discount the possibility. If WE, the shooting community and our ORGS stopped denying the criminals in our midst, if there are and actively supported efforts to find the culprits, the sooner we would be treated as we should.
This is why whoever says ONLY 100 people are involved misses the point entirely. ITS CRIMINAL ! Find them, prosecute them and expel them and or their bosses from shooting openly and with no regrets, if they are shooters - if they are antis/RSPB 'activists', the truth is the only defence. If they are natural deaths then the tags should give a clue and an autopsy, paid for by shooting Orgs, strikes the correct note - or do we have anything to hide ?
I dont think we do and moreover we shouldn't hide anything but cooperate to end this. Saying its a defensible position that ONLY 100 people are involved is transparently stupid as it confirms shooting is reluctant to act to end this.

 

[Border]

No, I do not say that they will kill them. But when a bird with a transmitter dies (maybe miles from any grouse moor and maybe due to natural causes or misadventure) its body can be located, kept in someone's freezer until an opportune moment for it to be conveniently "found" in an incriminating location at a politically appropriate time (eg, just before the start of the shooting season, or when a particular estate is already under scrutiny).
Or, as I mentioned before, the bird may never have existed. Just the tag.
I do believe it would not be beyond the likes of Avery to do this. He is clearly on a mission and will go to any extreme, I think, to achieve his goal.

This. Hence that the satellite tags should be monitored by an unbiased independent body with no allegiences to either camp. Data release should also be strictly regulated as not to be abused to front causes. If a cause of death can't be proved then it shouldn't be blamed on the "usual suspects" by default. The shooting community should also make a point of always condemning bird of prey persecution and point out the facts instead of the opposite side using emotional argumentation to front an agenda.

 

[Apthorpe]

I'm disappointed about how some on here appear to be in complete denial about this - questioning if the tag was ever really attached to an eagle in the first place, accusing the antis of finding the naturally dead bird, removing the tag, wrapping it in lead, putting it in a river, to conveniently 'find' it a few years on, sabotaging it all, etc.

It's sadly Trumpian, how some want to twist any reported facts to suit their agenda.
Let's face it, Avery (no matter what you may think of his viewpoints) in his article makes a lot of sense. This goes on a lot, in Scotland particularly, and it needs to stop.

We know full well that keepers have been caught in the act of shooting at raptors (in the case I'm thinking of the picture was viewed in court as not being good enough to confirm ID, I seem to recall), and there was another case a few years ago where a raptor had been caught in a trap and was 'disposed of' - that case, I seem to remember, fell apart because the CCTV had been illegally placed, according to the courts. Both those cases were in Scotland, I think

We need to condemn, utterly, those responsible for this act, or any other raptor persecution, and commit to reporting people responsible for these sorts of acts to the police.
Without a change in attitude, we're no better than the antis or animal rights people in their balaclavas who would tamper with car brakes, tear down pens, or commit their own criminal acts.

There's nothing wrong with questions. They help to establish facts. This campaign revolves around the misrepresentation of innuendo as fact, of isolated incident as organized routine, of even a short-term disappearance as confirmed criminal killing etc etc.

"It's sadly Trumpian, how some want to twist any reported facts to suit their agenda." Er.....did you read what the RSPB put out if you want an example of twisted a single reported event to an unsupportable conclusion, and thence to a ludicrous demand. Avery's article is ludicrous and frankly only a fool could agree with it.

Let's ask some questions and establish what the known facts are?

1. Is there any evidence that the eagle which this tag was attached to is dead? Answer: No, there isn't. Obviously the tag is not on the bird now, but there is no information or evidence as to who, or how it was removed. Nobody knows if a keeper killed it and cut it off, and nobody knows if anybody else removed it from the bird, whether dead or alive.

2. We know full well the keepers have been caught in the act of shooting a raptor because a picture was produced in court and the court found that it was not possible to conclude that a keeper had been involved in shooting a raptor. For reasons you don't explain, you reject the findings of the courts - perhaps you could explain why you know better than the experts who testified and the qualified judge presiding? A court found A, you decide Z is the fact.

3. Are we better or worse than antis who commit more crimes? Well, the number of crimes and quantity of lying ought to be something of a guide. It is wrong to draw false moral equivalences. The facts, so far as they can be established is that something like ONE person involved in shooting or landowning is convicted per year of killing or disturbing a protected bird. The activities of antis are orders of magnitude more criminal, and the activities of the RSPB orders of magnitude more harmful to wildlife. We're not perfect, and there are sadly very occasional criminal acts, but the FACT is that adherence to this law is extremely high, relative to compliance with almost any other law you could mention.

So it seems to me that some scepticism is more sensible than accepting the crap Avery and the RSPB are spouting.

 

[Liveonce]

........not least from the likes of you helping them in their entirely dishonest campaign to ignore facts and the basics of law and justice.

Ignore the facts, the Channel 4 news report states the police are prosecuting, so the facts must hold up in a court of law, must they not?

 

[Apthorpe]

Ignore the facts, the Channel 4 news report states the police are prosecuting, so the facts must hold up in a court of law, must they not?

Jesus wept! This must be a spoof.

It's not clear what incident you're talking about here, I can find no link to Channel 4 reporting on the incident of the lead-weighted tag.
Leaving that aside, as a very basic lesson in how the legal system works in this country the police do not prosecute. The CPS prosecutes. It's unlikely the Channel 4 report said that, and if they did, it is technically incorrect. Further, the existence of a prosecution cannot be taken as proof that the evidence presented will actually hold up in a court. It also cannot be considered as a factual statement that a crime has been committed or that a person is guilty.

So, in summary, you are at least thrice wrong on this, but I have no doubt you will continue to forge on with this deluded propaganda in defiance of obvious facts.

 

[Liveonce]

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Jesus wept! This must be a spoof.

It's not clear what incident you're talking about here, I can find no link to Channel 4 reporting on the incident of the lead-weighted tag.
Leaving that aside, as a very basic lesson in how the legal system works in this country the police do not prosecute. The CPS prosecutes. It's unlikely the Channel 4 report said that, and if they did, it is technically incorrect. Further, the existence of a prosecution cannot be taken as proof that the evidence presented will actually hold up in a court. It also cannot be considered as a factual statement that a crime has been committed or that a person is guilty.

So, in summary, you are at least thrice wrong on this, but I have no doubt you will continue to forge on with this deluded propaganda in defiance of obvious facts.

Agree it is not this incident, but a different one, agree you are innocent until proven guilty, but the police or CPS would not bring a prosecution if they did not think they have a good chance of obtaining a conviction.

Is Queen about to turn her back on the grouse shooting industry?

It's long been under scrutiny over the potential damage it does to wildlife and the environment.

www.channel4.com

 

[riflerob]

Not possible? Probable and likely is closer to the truth

So if you would want to hide your crime wouldn’t it be much simpler to smash the transmitter and arial with a hammer or burn it away from the site of the crime that is nowhere near your grouse moore. To wrap it in lead and allow it’s later discovery just smacks of a setup more than a serious attempt to hide a crime.

So, going by you, the RSPB / Avery / LACS are responsible, and are setting us up. No possibility of any other interpretation (a 'bad apple', or the estate actively persecuting raptors) seems even possible to you.

 

[pop1]

Are we really saying the people who want to protect these raptors will kill them and plant evidence such that they can then use it to campaign to regulate or ban dgs? Possible I guess.

Nobody said that at all. But here is another perspective for you to consider, Eagle was found dead, of natural causes, which happens in the countryside but doesn’t create mystic headlines and large sums of money into the pot. Tag was switched off by those that run/monitor them. Bird disappears, perhaps into a freezer for future reference or to see light of day around the 12th August. Tag then turns up under suspicious tampering circumstances for maximum effect during the current political climate surrounding grouse shooting.
Hence why the SGA are calling for more transparency on tag data.

 

[The Sporting Bookshop]

My motive is if we do have rotten apples among us committing these crimes against raptors they need stopping as clearly it brings the whole of shooting into disrepute and more and more regulation are then likely.
The likes of WJ and Avery are unlikely to give up and walk away and they continue to gain more and more support.

And how many rotten apples on the other side are fabricating evidence? until the whole bird (raptor) tagging programme is independently monitored i will take these reports with a large pinch of salt.

 

[jer]

So, going by you, the RSPB / Avery / LACS are responsible, and are setting us up. No possibility of any other interpretation (a 'bad apple', or the estate actively persecuting raptors) seems even possible to you.

Possible it is a bad apple yes but it would also possibly be one of the other options, do you honestly believe that some of these events have not been manufactured by shooting opponents. Keepers are always blamed for these things but all the keepers I have known are pretty astute guys and would have a lot more common sense than leave evidence of their crimes for someone to find when it is much easier to destroy it. I find it strange how RSPB and others are so reluctant to openly share their data and do not propose that an independent third party monitors all tagging. Every time a raptor is found dead or a tracker is found its keepers and grouse moors who are blamed despite the lack of hard evidence. You seem to believe that these so called conservationists wouldn't stoop to such things and do their best to get all shooting banned.

 

[Apthorpe]

0
Agree it is not this incident, but a different one, agree you are innocent until proven guilty, but the police or CPS would not bring a prosecution if they did not think they have a good chance of obtaining a conviction.

Is Queen about to turn her back on the grouse shooting industry?

It's long been under scrutiny over the potential damage it does to wildlife and the environment.

www.channel4.com

So, now we're coming a little closer to reality. Having started from a position that this incident show that idiots in the grouse shooting world are engaged in widespread criminality, you're now at the position that this incident proves nothing.
Although you have now moved onto another incident where a prosecution is reported to be forthcoming relating to an alleged killing of a goshawk by a keeper. This is, as yet, unproven. How many other cases in the past 12 months have beem proven? Find another equal sized area of the country with less wildlife crime.

The reality is this is a very rare type of crime afforded extreme prominence by a wide range of left-wing campaigners and left-leaning media.

 

[NoIDeer]

Why would someone leave a transmitter tag identifiable and carefully wrap it in lead, I'd smash it to bits first? Something doesn't quite add up.

 

[JabaliHunter]

Yep the Guardian, good for wiping ones ass, sadly not much else.

Sadly, it’s just about the only paper to frequently report on environmental issues, which it does well if you can see past it’s obvious agendas in some cases.

I’ve always been concerned that the Guardian is available free online, whereas the Telegraph and Times are behind paywalls, thereby brewing a perfect storm of indoctrination for a whole generation of young minds who aren’t going to pay to get an opposing or balanced view on the issues.

 

[JabaliHunter]

So is away forward to welcome licensing/regulation of dgs then when the raptors continue to disappear we can say told you so it was not us.

If anyone is naive enough to fall for that perverse logic, god help us