FAC Renewal

And here we are. He even gets a mention in the Home Office Guidance, albeit the 2013 version



19.15. The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus any keys to any security device should be kept secure, with access limited to authorised persons. This is especially important if there are children present in the premises. Knowledge by an unauthorised person of the location of the keys or to the combination to the locks may lead to a breach of the statutory security condition. In the case of Regina v Chelmsford Crown Court, Ex parte Farrer (2000) it was agreed that deliberately providing information of the whereabouts of the keys was an offence. It was “reasonably practicable” for Mr Farrer not to tell his mother where the keys were kept in this case.

19.16. The Court of Appeal case of Ex Parte Farrer (2000) confirmed the proposition that, if other people who are not authorised to possess the firearm/shotgun have access to it, the firearm/shotgun will not have been stored securely to prevent access by unauthorised persons. The Court of Appeal found that the term “practicable” in the Firearms Rules means “feasible in practice” not socially convenient or “reasonable”. The court found that it was feasible for Mr Farrer to have prevented his mother having access, and that he was in breach of the conditions of the certificate because he gave his mother access to the key. What is required is for the certificate holder to keep the whereabouts of the key or security combination unknown to anyone but themselves.
All well and good. You seem to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Firearms Acts, Rules and the HOG.
I have been involved with running two RFDs since the early 1980's and with running a Fullbore rifle club for over twenty years. I tend to agree slightly that applicants for grants, renewals and variations can be their own worst enemy in not knowing the law and the HOG, but there is also the issue of licensing departments not following HOG. Indeed some FEOs I have encountered in more than one police area have actually gone out of their way to be obstructive.
 
All well and good. You seem to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Firearms Acts, Rules and the HOG.
I have been involved with running two RFDs since the early 1980's and with running a Fullbore rifle club for over twenty years. I tend to agree slightly that applicants for grants, renewals and variations can be their own worst enemy in not knowing the law and the HOG, but there is also the issue of licensing departments not following HOG. Indeed some FEOs I have encountered in more than one police area have actually gone out of their way to be obstructive.
Oh don't get me wrong, there are people in the business who I wouldn't pay in washers, and you're right, there are some FEOs (and even decision makers....) who are awkward and could be described as obstructive, but they are few and far between. I know of at least one whose words and actions at one stage would make it appear it was his mission to reduce the public ownership of firearms. However, he was sharply reminded that it was his job to gather facts and that he wasn't there to decide who can and can't have what.

It would be really lovely if we could all have whatever takes our fancy, but the most difficult cases are those where someone asks for authority to possess something where it rapidly becomes apparent that they don't really have good reason to do so.

As a fellow enthusiast I understand the desire to purchase new and shiny, but we go back to the initial overarching premise, that of public safety. There is, whether it suits our personal agenda or not, a risk that firearms will be targeted by professional thieves. The more firearms held in domestic premises, the greater the risk of those firearms being stolen, and by logical progression, increased danger to the public.

I'm not picking on target shooters here by the way, but I know of several who have, over the years, amassed an absolute arsenal of target rifles. One such, on interview, admitted that he only ever fired a few rounds through some of them then stuck them in his strongroom and more or less forgot about them, before heading for the auctions and dealers in search of more interesting examples. He was eventually persuaded to do a few more one-for-ones and if he really became attached to stuff, to apply for a collector's certificate.
 
Who did you marry?

My wife knows where I hide my whisky. She knows where I am. She knows what I am thinking. She knows where the bodies are buried.

It does not matter how many times I clear my "Search history"...
She knows...

It appears he married Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II as he obviously lives in Buckingham Palace! 😉
I used to live in a 2 bedroom cottage with my wife, short of blindfolding her and taping ear defenders to her head I don't think I could have kept her from knowing where my keys were kept if she wanted to know 😁
 
Oh don't get me wrong, there are people in the business who I wouldn't pay in washers, and you're right, there are some FEOs (and even decision makers....) who are awkward and could be described as obstructive, but they are few and far between. I know of at least one whose words and actions at one stage would make it appear it was his mission to reduce the public ownership of firearms. However, he was sharply reminded that it was his job to gather facts and that he wasn't there to decide who can and can't have what.

It would be really lovely if we could all have whatever takes our fancy, but the most difficult cases are those where someone asks for authority to possess something where it rapidly becomes apparent that they don't really have good reason to do so.

As a fellow enthusiast I understand the desire to purchase new and shiny, but we go back to the initial overarching premise, that of public safety. There is, whether it suits our personal agenda or not, a risk that firearms will be targeted by professional thieves. The more firearms held in domestic premises, the greater the risk of those firearms being stolen, and by logical progression, increased danger to the public.

I'm not picking on target shooters here by the way, but I know of several who have, over the years, amassed an absolute arsenal of target rifles. One such, on interview, admitted that he only ever fired a few rounds through some of them then stuck them in his strongroom and more or less forgot about them, before heading for the auctions and dealers in search of more interesting examples. He was eventually persuaded to do a few more one-for-ones and if he really became attached to stuff, to apply for a collector's certificate.
Perhaps you could explain how "the more firearms held in domestic premises the greater the risk in those firearms being stolen and by logical progression----"
So what you are in fact saying is that the number of firearms held by civilians in domestic premises should be reduced? Over the years this statement has been made regularly by politicians and senior police officers, so I do believe there is an agenda to that effect.
Surely, as long as their storage is secure, then the actual numbers of firearms held is immaterial, as long as good reason is demonstrated.
 
It's possible that those rules ensured that the safe storage condition was included on every certificate. But logic dictates that the legal requirement to prevent unauthorised access predates that .... if only because Farrer was originally prosecuted for an offence which was heard in court in 1997.

However. I applied for my first shotgun certificate in 1988/89, and it was already a requirement to store them in a firearms cabinet then.
You're right it was the 1988 Act, the Firearm Rules dictated the layout and wording of the certificates.

F
 
Perhaps you could explain how "the more firearms held in domestic premises the greater the risk in those firearms being stolen and by logical progression----"
So what you are in fact saying is that the number of firearms held by civilians in domestic premises should be reduced? Over the years this statement has been made regularly by politicians and senior police officers, so I do believe there is an agenda to that effect.
Surely, as long as their storage is secure, then the actual numbers of firearms held is immaterial, as long as good reason is demonstrated.
As I said, in an ideal world we’d all get exactly what we fancied.

The people you have to convince are the National Policing people who dictate the policy. The Agenda is Firearms and Public Safety. I gave the link to it a couple of pages back.
 
As I said, in an ideal world we’d all get exactly what we fancied.

The people you have to convince are the National Policing people who dictate the policy. The Agenda is Firearms and Public Safety. I gave the link to it a couple of pages back.
Scapegoat , thank you for your prompt replies.
 
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