FAC Renewal

[Broadarrow]

recently had my FAC renewal interview...well I say interview...it was a phone call while I was holiday and the ''can I have a quick chat '' turned into 1 hour of what seemed like an interrogation.

Despite advising I was holiday on a caravan site the interview went ahead.

A couple of things concerned me......1- When I asked how many rounds I had left in storage - I replied not many because I use mostly home loads supplied by colleagues who out shooting / stalking..he wanted to know who these people were and that their detail should be entered on my cert so that they can keep track on how much ammo I use.....2- would send out my new cert just prior to expiry of old one but then wanted the old one back to check how much and where I purchased ammo from ... 3 - I wanted a 308 adding to my FAC and when asked why I replied because I want to shoot larger species such as RED and Wild boar..he asked me to name where would be shooting boar despite having an existing OPEN FAC WITH ''ALL LAWFUL QUARRY ''.. 4- Was initially going to refuse a 308 because I had a Couple of 303 lee Enfields which have ''all lawful quarry'' / targets . He asked why I couldn't use them for large species....!!! after explaining that some estates dont like people Turning up looking like they are members of the Kings Own Regiment he accepted that as a good reason.
And despite not being a current member of home office target club ( old club still on my ticket ) - and advising that I was in the process of joining a new indoor large calibre range - he said that target shooting would be removed from new ticket until I had completed the membership process of the new club ..then I could ask for a free variation for target shooting ....

Anyone else experienced any of this ?

 

[Reloader708]

I'm sure there will be lots of people with a story, I've got a couple of my own! I think the problem is theres no consistency, it just seems to be managed on the whim of individual officers (although many are now civilians)
I sometimes wonder if they just use bully tactics to see if you'll cave.

 

[Scapegoat]

1. Yes. If you are given ammo the person giving it to you must endorse the ammunition table on your certificate. Are they making the ammunition for your rifle specifically?

2. Requiring to see your old certificate informs the licensing department how much ammunition you are buying/acquiring. It forms part of the decision making around good reason.

3. Whether or not you have AOLQ on your conditions, the licensing department needs to be assured that what you are asking for is a "proper" good reason. For example I could say I wanted an elephant specific calibre, because in certain circumstances elephants are "Legal Quarry" but unless I can show tickets for my trip to Africa, I'm not going to get one. By the same reasoning, you can't claim to need a calibre for boar if none of the land you have permission to shoot over has boar. (or you're booked on a boar trip...) So the Enquiry Officer was trying to establish how genuine your good reason was. "Just on the off-chance I might shoot some in the future " is not considered good reason.

4. If you aren't a current member of a club, you won't get a target specific condition.

The enquiry officer can only play the cards you deal.

 

[MAH]

I think Scapegoat summed it up well.
The FLOs have a job to do, ensuring individuals "have good reason" is part of it.
There are a variety of good reasons and the rules the FLOs work to are available to the public. Typically on the police website.
M.

 

[Pedro]

The hoops we have to jump through are put there by legislation (and regulations and HO advice). Although it's true that some FEOs and licencing staff will enforce them to differing degrees and indeed some go off piste. And as for FEOs, they come in all shapes and sizes. But it's worth remembering that the FEO makes no decisions. He/she does the leg work and then the decisions are made further up the ladder. Although it's never a bad thing to keep them sweet (if possible) as they can and will make recommendations.

I've recently changed my membership to another range and let the original one lapse. Although it didn't coincide with renewal time, the best advice is to join the new range and stick with the old one (whether you actually go there or not) until you are a full member at the new one. Then simply inform your licencing authority (not the FEO, just write/email the firearms licencing department) and invite them to alter the specific wording on your certificate. Which they did happily for me, no doubt after a call to the secretary of the new club.

As for providing some evidence you are using your rifles, this is often evident by the purchases of ammo shown on your certificate. But not, obviously for home loaders. Incidentally I would be very reluctant to use other people's home loads in my rifles. 99 times out of a hundred, no problem. But whose to blame if you get a double load of powder, for example? If your rifle malfunctions, where does the blame lie? I keep a bit of a journal with an entry for each time I do some loading and it has a column for comments on performance. Of course this is predominantly for my own benefit, but it is also a record of usage if required. Some people will say don't keep any records, because you don't have to. Fair enough, but to keep your certificate, it's worth remembering that you need to show good reason somehow. Hence, incidentally why initially, you won't have authority to shoot on ranges.

As for the .303s, well there are people who use them for hunting/stalking so that perhaps wasn't a question that was too out of the way. And of course you are getting your slot for a .308.

The FEO was probably being a bit of a jobsworth but potentially being held to account if something goes spectacularly wrong is a big factor for licencing departments/police forces to ensure all the "t"s are crossed and "i"s dotted.

 

[Broadarrow]

thanks for the responses fellas.....It just seemed like a more in depth '' interview'' this time round....I ve had an open ticket for over 15 years now and this years was really no different to the previous two renewals in what I was asking for ( calibre change / additions etc ) I am aware that the ( I won't say ultimate ) decision on whether I get what I want / or if I get a rental falls in the hands of the chief inspector of the firearms licensing dept ......But having had experience on both sides of the fence it still concerns me that police forces still seem to administer licensing differently and interpret the H/O guidelines on firearms licensing to their own circumstances ..... A largely urban police force are much stricter than a largely rural police force when it comes to licensing and as said previously I have had first hand experience of this .

 

[Broadarrow]

I'm sure there will be lots of people with a story, I've got a couple of my own! I think the problem is theres no consistency, it just seems to be managed on the whim of individual officers (although many are now civilians)
I sometimes wonder if they just use bully tactics to see if you'll cave.

they still use mind games and daft questions to trip you up....''if anything happens to you and you fall ill can your wife let us have access to your gun cabinets''. / '' do you hide your keys in a safe place '' - these came up again

 

[Broadarrow]

further to my last post - sorry cant get to edit...

I was working full time for the govt up until last year but had a business on days off and when hours permitted operating as a self employed game farm manager / pest controller / game keeper ..I recently registered as officially fully self employed ( and the taxman is already causing problems ! ) and have permissions to shoot all legal species on numerous farms / game shoots / game rearing facilities on vast areas of land in Northern England and the Scottish Borders. I have had an ''open licence '' for over 15 years now . I declared all of this on renewal. Yet why are we still required to provide 1 piece of land / permission. In the past I supplied the licensing authority with copies of permission letters for every area of land I shot on but was informed it was no longer required due to having an open ticket.......

 

[User00040]

Pretty sure there will be a running tally for the number of certificates revoked or volountarily cancelled/handed in. No doubt top brass will always see an increase of this number as some sort of perverse achievement.

 

[Scapegoat]

Pretty sure there will be a running tally for the number of certificates revoked or volountarily cancelled/handed in. No doubt top brass will always see an increase of this number as some sort of perverse achievement.

There is no such running tally

Performance figures are based on timescales. It’ll take me a while to google it, but recently published data shows that there has been a year on year increase in the number of certificate holders across the board.

 

[Scapegoat]

As at 31 March 2019, there were:
• 159,745 firearm certificates on issue, continuing the steady year-on-year increase seen over the past 9 years.
• 572,488 shotgun certificates on issue – there has been little variation in numbers over the last 10 years.
Firearm and shotgun certificates on issue as at 31 March 2010 to 2019
600,000 500,000 400,000 300,000 200,000 100,000
0
2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019
Firearm certificates on issue Shotgun certificates on issue
• 591,302 people held a firearm and/or a shotgun certificate, an 0.8% increase of 4,719 since last year.
In the year ending 31 March 2019, there were:
• 8,663 new applications for firearm certificates, of which 98% were granted and 2% were refused.
• 21,637 new applications for shotgun certificates, of which 97% were granted and 3% were refused.
• 376 firearms certificates were revoked – increase of 9% (31) compared with the previous year.
• 1,116 shotgun certificates were revoked – increase of 3% (34) compared with the previous year.





The table I copied doesn’t format very well.

However, if only two or three percent of applications are refused out of thousands, then there doesn’t seem to be much evidence to support the frankly ridiculous notion of a push to drive down firearms ownership in the UK.

The slight increase in revocations coincides I suspect with the increased access to medical records. A debate for another time perhaps, but there is a common narrative at play on shooters’ forums that they’re all out to get us. It simply isn’t true.

 

[VSS]

they still use mind games and daft questions to trip you up....''if anything happens to you and you fall ill can your wife let us have access to your gun cabinets''. / '' do you hide your keys in a safe place '' - these came up again

My response to this question was: "You should be more concerned if this was the kind of household where I felt I had to keep secrets from my wife!" and left it at that.

 

[8x57]

Scapegoat am I correct in assuming that the figures you quote relate to only England and Wales, and that Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own separate numbers?

 

[25 Sharps]

recently had my FAC renewal interview...well I say interview...it was a phone call while I was holiday and the ''can I have a quick chat '' turned into 1 hour of what seemed like an interrogation.

Despite advising I was holiday on a caravan site the interview went ahead.

A couple of things concerned me......1- When I asked how many rounds I had left in storage - I replied not many because I use mostly home loads supplied by colleagues who out shooting / stalking..he wanted to know who these people were and that their detail should be entered on my cert so that they can keep track on how much ammo I use.....2- would send out my new cert just prior to expiry of old one but then wanted the old one back to check how much and where I purchased ammo from ... 3 - I wanted a 308 adding to my FAC and when asked why I replied because I want to shoot larger species such as RED and Wild boar..he asked me to name where would be shooting boar despite having an existing OPEN FAC WITH ''ALL LAWFUL QUARRY ''.. 4- Was initially going to refuse a 308 because I had a Couple of 303 lee Enfields which have ''all lawful quarry'' / targets . He asked why I couldn't use them for large species....!!! after explaining that some estates dont like people Turning up looking like they are members of the Kings Own Regiment he accepted that as a good reason.
And despite not being a current member of home office target club ( old club still on my ticket ) - and advising that I was in the process of joining a new indoor large calibre range - he said that target shooting would be removed from new ticket until I had completed the membership process of the new club ..then I could ask for a free variation for target shooting ....

Anyone else experienced any of this ?

Apart from expecting the .303 for boar all of the above sounds pretty standard

 

[Scapegoat]

Scapegoat am I correct in assuming that the figures you quote relate to only England and Wales, and that Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own separate numbers?

Yes, sorry. England and Wales

Here's the link to the full report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

 

[Scapegoat]

Interesting stat that re revocations. 371 is less than a quarter of a percent of the total number of firearms certificates held in E&W. The 9% increase in the number of revocations represents 0.0194% of E&W certificate holders. So clearly every force is absolutely falling over itself to trap legitimate certificate holders into losing their certificates. Even that absolutely ballooning number of revocations represents 8.6 revocations per force per year.



As for the keys question. Best practice guidance and a condition of your certificate either for shotguns or firearms is that they should be securely stored to prevent access by unauthorised persons. If your answer to your keys question is anything other than "My keys are hidden where only I can find them." then you are not complying with the conditions. Smart-arse answers will not help.

 

[muddy42]

Nothing surprises me anymore with renewals. The worst was a similar hour long interrogation by two people (one plus observer) and the questions were coming thick and fast. I've had silly petty point scoring restrictions like reduced ammo allowances and a huge number of typos and errors in spite of the fact my arsenal hasn't changed much since I was a teenager. I have to say though:
- In spite of what you actually do, I'd always recommend having some ammo signed on to your FAC in each calibre and having an answer about how many rounds you have on renewal. Home loading isn't a legal exemption from this.
- An open FAC isn't a substitute for providing "good reason" for new calibres.
- Always have a story for good reason for every rifle - how many deer you have shot and rounds used with each rifle in the past year etc.
- think carefully about good reason or do some research on here. Fashion or having a rifle that looks the part isn't going to cut it. Just say you need a lighter 308, or one that accepts a scope and moderator, being a minimum estate requirement etc. this allows you to shoot deer humanely and preserve the hearing of those around you.
- Don't be chippy or aggravate these people. They may know the rules, but probably have little practical stalking experience outdoors. They are just doing a job, just be patient, answer the question politely and then shut up and allow them to tick the boxes. Ask them to repeat the question if they try any mind games.

 

[VSS]

All of the FEOs that I have dealt with over the years have been human beings. Ordinary people who I could have a chat and a joke with, without feeling I needed to be on my guard the whole time. Nothing but a positive experience, and I actually quite look forward to their visits as it's good to talk to them about what we do and why.
It seems to me that some of you guys either:
a) get a raw deal,
or
b) worry too much.

Probably b, mostly!

 

[Scapegoat]

All of the FEOs that I have dealt with over the years have been human beings. Ordinary people who I could have a chat and a joke with, without feeling I needed to be on my guard the whole time. Nothing but a positive experience, and I actually quite look forward to their visits as it's good to talk to them about what we do and why.
It seems to me that some of you guys either:
a) get a raw deal,
or
b) worry too much.

Probably b, mostly!

Half of the problems start when the applicant reads nonsense on social media platforms about how stupid FEOs are, and how all they want to do is trick you into losing your ticket.

I could post all sorts of stories about some of the applicants I've met and have experience of, but here's the rub:

Firearms department strategy is simple. To ensure that members of the public can lawfully and safely own and use firearms in the UK. The decision making is bound by the guidance contained in the HOG. It isn't a mystery, it's available to download for free.

T

 

[TH4]

You are very lucky. Over nearly 50 years I have had all sorts of FEOs from excellent to at least one idiot that pointed my 416 at the house opposite to see if it was loaded and asked if my 308 was semi auto.