Hi everyone 
Most probably some interesting news for you quite soon
Most probably some interesting news for you quite soon
Scotland Lead Free Roe Load for .222/.223 Remington
- Thread starter User00040
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dropmdead
Well-Known Member
I will be a devils advocate and throw a "acceptance of toxins" in the equation - Alcohol.
Deaths every year are more than 50 people (just a number, not a fact) that die from alcohol poisoning, but it's okay (it's not okay, but in the eyes of the law it is...).
The lead law will be a EU law, but as we have all voted, this will soon not apply to us, unless we export the venison.
As we are not all contractors of deer, but hobbyists and upwards, will your venison be exported?
Deaths every year are more than 50 people (just a number, not a fact) that die from alcohol poisoning, but it's okay (it's not okay, but in the eyes of the law it is...).
The lead law will be a EU law, but as we have all voted, this will soon not apply to us, unless we export the venison.
As we are not all contractors of deer, but hobbyists and upwards, will your venison be exported?
You are being too rational. There is no evidence that the lead in bullet is harming the environment - but obviously lead is "nasty stuff" and we are not allowed to have it in paint, or in solder, so it is a logical extension that it must be banned in all the components of ammunition (It has already been replaced in primer compound)
There is nothing more certain than lead in bullets will be banned in this country. It is only a matter of time before lead is banned in the ammo in all Olympic shooting sports, and it will be banned on all ranges in this country. The fact that we have been living with it for a century or more without significant harmful effects will have no impact whatsoever on this matter.
Does anyone have any info on the terminal performance of these frankenprojectiles?
I bought 200 a few weeks back and had to pull the tips to get them to stabilise in my .222. I don't want to unleash them on live quarry if they are not up to standard at the business end!
Depends on barrel length and the specifics of the loaded round.
They return phone calls less than I do...
They perform better without tips than they do with
Excellent expansion
The ballistic tips do nothing to assist expansion
They aid BC
The velocities of the small .224 bullets is impressive and more than enough to initiate expansion
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Interesting topic and not just relevant to non-lead bullets. A conventional 222 50gns bullet must exceed the 1000 ft lbs minimum requirement for Roe in Scotland but that bullet even travelling at 3,000 fps will fall just short of the legal limit. The 2020 Viht guide for .222 50grns starting charges will all fail this requirement whereas the max loads will all exceed it. Indeed the failure factor also applies to some of the 55 grn starting loads. Soooo anyone out there who prefers lighter charges when they reload needs to be aware of this if going for scottish roe and increase their powder loads accordingly.
From what has been said already Copper etc. bullet lengths for the 222 will have to increase to make the 50gn minimum weight but this unavoidable lengthening will almost certainly prove problematical in chambering/twist etc. of this otherwise excellent round - to what precise extent remains to be seen! The cynic would of course say that this is a back door death by a thousand cuts and if introduced would have a dramatic impact on the numbers of those rifles with what will then be unsuitable barrels. What next??
From what has been said already Copper etc. bullet lengths for the 222 will have to increase to make the 50gn minimum weight but this unavoidable lengthening will almost certainly prove problematical in chambering/twist etc. of this otherwise excellent round - to what precise extent remains to be seen! The cynic would of course say that this is a back door death by a thousand cuts and if introduced would have a dramatic impact on the numbers of those rifles with what will then be unsuitable barrels. What next??
What next? Why, you head off down to your local gunshop and buy a NEW rifle of course. You don't seem to realise that the move to lead-free ammunition is GOOD for the gun trade and so has to be GOOD for all shooters in general....
Speaking of which, there was an interesting article in the BASC Journal by Sam Thompson, on his experience in shooting copper bullets. I have had an exchange of emails with him as a result. Seems he has now shot over 600 beasts with copper bullets, so his consequent comments have some merits.
Sam made the comment that copper bullets need more terminal energy in order to work properly. That is, it takes more energy to open out the 'petals' on the copper bullets than to mushroom a copper jacketed lead bullet. That being the case, he predicted a move from the 'regulars' (308 Win, 270 Rem) to 'moderate magnums' (eg 270 WSM) for the effective use of solids.
So there we are - more GOOD news for the guntrade, and a good excuse for you head down to your local gunshop and trade up to that magnum you always dreamed about. What is not to like?
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Interesting. I was aware of the challenges of of making a copper 243 bullet deer legal in Scotland for the big deer, but I wasn't aware that some of the 22CFs would also struggle for Roe in Scotland.
I can't see the law changing to suddenly allow lighter, less energy bullets - deer legislation should be based on deer welfare and as deer remain physically the same, that welfare argument hasn't changed.
Yes better bullet design may help but I would have thought this must push stalkers towards larger calibres, with a wider range of deer legal non-lead ammunition for England and Scotland.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Fantastic - a real result all round then and everybody wins except that (from memory) over here (NI) we are capped at 30.06! Can you really see the authorities easing up on this?? No, me neither - but sure that's all right, then!
By-and-large, the muzzle energy for any given cartridge and powder charge will be the same, regardless of the bullet weight. So, lighter bullets will exit the muzzle faster, having much the same energy as heavier bullets, which will exit slower.
The problem is not about the weight of the bullet per se, but the fact that a copper bullet having the same weight as a jacketed lead bullet will need a barrel with a faster twist to stabilize it properly. A 243 Win with a standard 10" twist barrel will not stabilise a 100 grain 'solid' projectile. You will need a new barrel/gun to stay legal (in Scotland)....
Exactly. What I was trying to say that the non-technical layman (without ballistic software or a chrono) used to be able to simply buy any 243, buy any 100 grain expanding ammo, zero and go and legally shoot any deer across the UK with the same rifle for the next 50 years. My dad did exactly this 50 years ago.
I can't see why a sensible person would do that now, given if lead was phased out, at best you'll have very limited ammo choice and bullet weight. Why would you risk the bother, you'd just buy a larger calibre and move on.
For those interested theres some mention of a change in legislation for scotland in this video someone may be able to decipher it
Never happen
We can't even get the road and railways working
this doesnt even register on page 59 of the list if things to do in Scottish Government.....
Ed
See here
www.gov.scot
See here
The management of wild deer in Scotland: Deer Working Group report
The final report of the Deer Working Group.
www.gov.scot
Redleg
Well-Known Member
They only appear to be concentrating on copper rounds for deer and it won't be long before all lead ammo is banned.
So, If they are struggling to find a 100g 243 copper round that stabilizes, What are they going to do with the 223, 222, 222-50, 22 hornet, 22 rim and 17hmr. or are all those calibres going to be obsolete?
So, If they are struggling to find a 100g 243 copper round that stabilizes, What are they going to do with the 223, 222, 222-50, 22 hornet, 22 rim and 17hmr. or are all those calibres going to be obsolete?
Obsolete? Well, the 22LR, which is so useful for knocking off rabbits and other small vermin, unfortunately has those nasty pure lead bullets. I have not heard any news about any 22LR manufacturer trying to come up with a lead free alternative to the most popular cartridge in the world (more than 5 billion rounds produced each year!) and I really don't see that it is possible. So it looks like manufacturers will gradually phase this cartridge out in the coming years. That then is one class of rifle which (I predict) will become obsolete. Time will tell what replaces it. The 17 Hornet is being trialed on the basis that a keeper somewhere in "the South" tried it and it shot well. But no doubt there will be other contenders.
As I posted earlier, getting the muzzle energy with solids is really just a case of a new barrel with a faster twist to stabilise the less dense projectile. But the real problem is that solids would appear to need more terminal energy than lead jacketed projectiles so they expand properly and it is that which may well lead to a gradual move to cartridges with a bigger engine room for the calibre.
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