Which one? 6.5 PRC or 270 WIN

[rem284]

@dodgyknees how many rounds are your fellow NZ’ers getting out of their PRC’s?

I’m sure it’s based on the GAP 6.5 4S and round count was around 1000.

It's like buying a Maserati then being asked what's the mpg.

 

[scotch_egg]

So back to my post about the .308 for practice.


You want to be putting 100 rounds down range at least every month to get to know what the wind does.

The PRC will be very expensive to run. Factory ammunition will be £3 a round.




Buying a Maserati secondhand is cheap as chips. One the largest depreciations in the industry.

 

[Rusty Gate]

Afternoon all,

I am getting a new rifle, make/spec TBC but a very important part of the purchase is the calibre. My ambition for this rifle would be an all rounder, something that i can take into the hills and hunt at distance (500-600m) to high precision, but also take it to the range and have fun shooting up to 1000m.

My areas of comparison would be ammo availability, cost, barrel life and lethality/energy retention. I see that many manufacturers are offering 6.5 PRC in many models and I would imagine the ammo availability would increase in the future.

Maybe its better to keep it simple? 270win is super accessible and is there realistically an advantage for one over the other?

Any thoughts are appreciated!

Cheers,

Tom

A nice 280AI instead of the 270 maybe

 

[User00033]

So back to my post about the .308 for practice.


You want to be putting 100 rounds down range at least every month to get to know what the wind does.

The PRC will be very expensive to run. Factory ammunition will be £3 a round.




Buying a Maserati secondhand is cheap as chips. One the largest depreciations in the industry.

It's a very good suggestion.

 

[finnbear270]

I wondered how to frame my wording several times, I can't decide what long range really is in live quarry shooting, for me , maybe it would be that feeling or voice in the back of my head," Nope!, that's just a bit far off ", not a question of lasered range, more a question of experiences of past life, this life of shooting started with .22 and .177 springers chasing empty cotton reels along a river bank, then rabbits & starlings ... wind as in all shooting was a factor ... just not so much within a hundred yards, but the scale was there.

An itch for another or a new calibre / chambering, lots of us have it at least once, ... currently mine is the 6.5 PRC, not because it is one of the latest kid's on the block, more of a result of a little study.

I have had a few lumps to carry about, .300 WinMag x 2 , 45/70 Govnmn't, 7mm WSM ...... my go to favourite the .270 Win was the father of my latest itch, .it is a renowned hill rifle in use by innumerable Scots stalkers.

So to the PRC , It sounds to me like a .270 on a decent dose of steroid, It is being constructed from some quality used Sako parts, along with a Lothar barrel, by a Rifle smith whose reputation goes before him.

 

[A Guy Out West]

The most important thing for you to do here @Ackers-303, is to understand that you must filter out all the responses from guys that never have, and never will, shoot deer at 500-600m. You need advice specifically from blokes that do shoot like this regularly and have done for a good while. The forum is replete with armchair experts not qualified by experience, but by opinion formed entirely subjectively.

The 6.5 PRC is superior to the .270 Win for distance hunting in one critically important way - it was specifically designed for it, using hundreds of years of combined experience of clever Hornady engineers. The numbers alone do not make the distinction as clear you might think - at 500m, the .270 Win doesn’t lag that far behind assuming you are using a bullet like the 145gr ELD-X in Hornady Precision Hunter, and you don’t have a short barrel.

Where the 6.5 PRC has a significant advantage is internal ballistics. Very clever people know what happens inside a cartridge at the moment of ignition, but suffice to say cartridge design has come a long, long way since 1925. So the 6.5 PRC has all the precision and accuracy gains developed over the course of the last couple of decades, as benchrest design philosophies like 30° shoulder angles have made their way into broader use, and in particular hunting rounds. As it takes off, which it will, more 6.5 hunting bullets will hit the market and more factory ammunition offerings will have ballistically superior bullets. The 6.5 PRC twist of 1:8” is much more useable and flexible, whereas the 1:10” twist .270 Win is maxxed out with the 145gr ELD-X and can’t accurately shoot anything longer.

The only reason you would select a .270 Win over a 6.5 PRC is ammunition availability, which almost certainly won’t be the problem some will claim as it is usually solved with a relatively easy internet search.

Regarding shooting deer at distance. You’ll get a lot of naysayers on here, simply though lack of experience, the culture, tradition and so on. You would be better off using one of the specialist long range forums or a forum in a country like New Zealand where a 500m deer with a 6.5 doesn’t bat an eyelid. What @srvet is getting at though is 100% valid, its not something you start doing after having only done close range stalking. You need a lot of practice and the best way to do that is to shoot gongs at varying ranges in varying conditions, on a property where you have proper natural terrain, shooting prone. Use flags along the line of sight to learn the wind, be prepared to get frustrated, make sure that you don’t start getting stingy on the amount you are shooting because the ammo is expensive. Believe me, shooting off the bench at Bisley won’t cut it, you need to shoot in the field.

Build up your confidence with experience, if you are a natural shot then it won’t be too long before you are pinging the 1 MOA gong at 600m.

I think this is your best post ever.

 

[User00040]

You want to be putting 100 rounds down range at least every month session to get to know what the wind does.

There, fixed that for you.

While you are at it, learn to reload on the .308; loads of data out there and if you rifle does not shoot the M118LR load (175 SMK seated to around 2.8" COAL with a suitable CCI or Federal Large Rifle Primer, and some 40-odd grains of N140 or similar powder) then the rifle is probably a dud.

Example of this being used competently out to 1,000 yards:

 

[Ronin]

Why?

The early adopters of 6.5 PRC down here in our community are extremely happy with their decision. Some of these guys are top notch Alpine hunters, out there doing the hard yards. Do you think marketing blinded them and they just hopped on a bandwagon so they could be cool and groovy? Or do you think that maybe they studiously analysed the ballistics, the projectile availability, the conditions in which they would be shooting, the species they were targeting, and reached an informed decision?

All this "marketing driven" nonsense was trotted out for years about the Creedmoor. A fad, they said. Just a wannabe they said. Will fade away they said. Over and over and over again.

Now look at it.

The simple fact of the matter is that Hornady has stolen a march on the other manufacturers by innovating hard, using renowned shooting experts to partner with them and new media channels to get the word out. And man has it worked. Ask yourself, as an investor, who would you put your money behind? Hornady, Sierra (fluffed the TGK launch terribly), Speer (hoping for a civil war) or Berger (niche Lizt-itis with nothing new to offer)?

I get that anything newfangled has always been a hard sell in the far north of England, but mate, really, they won. Move on.

The whole point of the thread is to give advice - practical advice to the op

Non biased informed discussion

There are numerous ideal cartridges out there that the op may choose from that would suit both the initial and end use application

ie initial training and then longer range application

PRC and Creedmoor are two of many

One has ammunition widely available in gun shops in the uk the other not so

I can think of a dozen other cartridges suitable for the task - so I do not focus on one manufacturer as they are not the “be all
And end all”

Training, ability and shot placement are the fundamental basics required to be mastered before one should consider moving forward to killing at longer ranges

There are so many variables that even experienced shots get it wrong

The New Zealand experiences of PRC may have some relevance to longer range application but there are so many other niche cartridges being used over there it is I believe a small sample of what is actually being used - I would guess that 7mm based cartridges more prevalent

I apologise to appear to be cynical - it’s easy to read into text something that was unintended

 

[stubear]

You haven’t got a cat in hells chance of finding ammo off the shelf in 6.5 PRC at the moment so it would be handloads only. The 270 would give factory ammo availability but few optimised to long range target use. The best jack of all trades for what you describe is probably the 6.5 Creedmore, however hunting at 600 yards is not something to be entered into lightly. Even the slightest error in range estimation or most significantly wind and you will have a wounded deer to contend with. If you are serious about longer range hunting then I would step up a gear and think about a 7mm or 300 Magnum.

Agree with this.

Personally I'd go 270 - WAY more ammo availability.

 

[stubear]

Please bear in mind that a higher performing round will not eliminate variables, only produce a reduction in the degree of bullet drop and drift in wind. The further out you shoot the the chance of wounding increases exponentially. If you can get onto a range like Eskdalemuir where you can safely experiment with elevation adjustments and wind calls safely then definitely do so. It is humbling to see accomplished long range competition shooters getting foxed by the wind downrange. Even at a modest 300m the bullet can easily drift enough to turn a perfect heart/lung shot to a gut shot even with the most aerodynamic bullet!
I’m not meaning to come across all preachy but from your question it sounds like you probably haven’t done much stalking (apologies in advance if this is wrong)

I also TOTALLY agree with this.

I shot at 300y at Bisley with my 300wm a few months ago - there was a solid but by no means hurricane force wind coming from left to right (maybe 12-15mph) and I would say I was having to aim off a good foot to 18" in order to be in the bull. That would totally take a perceived H/L shot into gut shot territory.

Which as an aside is why I'm always skeptical when I see these posts on FB of a head shot deer and the comment is "pErFeCt HeAd sHoT - 927 yArDs AnD hE wAs DoWn". Ok pal - 9.27y is more like it but sure...

 

[johnnyha]

Having seen what it takes to be a top PRS shooter, the advice around a single calibre and shooting it a lot rings true. Those I know winning at competitive events are wearing out 2-3 barrels a year, with 6/6.5m rounds, at the range at least twice a month, all conditions, meticulous with data etc. It all goes to show that the choice of calibre is probably one of the least impactful factors in this debate, but much more the approach taken to developing the skills required to be accurate at range.

One of the challenges of handloading is that it takes time - clearly, that will have to be weighed against time on the range. One of the great advantages of (e.g.) 308 is the range of abundant and cheap 'factory' ammunition, such as HPS and GGG, which are giving close to single figure SD. The time saved in reloading can just as well be spent on the range. By the time you come to place the crosshairs over flesh and bone, you should know your calibre, rifle, drops and wind drift at distance sufficiently well to consistently hit <.5 MOA on steel, as the position in the field will inevitably be far less comfortable, and the pressure of time, adrenaline and target movement will be factors which don't exist on the range.

You could do a lot worse than reading Nathan Foster's books, an invaluable ongoing reference point. Additionally, using a ballistic calculator like the Garmin Foretrex 701 or Kestrel Ballistic Edition, if properly calibrated, will make life considerably easier. Both have the advantage of custom drag curves and being constantly updated with accurate data.

 

[JabaliHunter]

If you read Nathan Foster you’ll end up getting a 7mm-300 Win Mag

 

[NP435]

I do appreciate advice from all, as cynical as some may sound, the underlying themes of being totally proficient at any given range is an absolute must. I think the conversation has strayed somewhat, perhaps i could have been more specific in my own level of experience, and of the application of the rifle. It is to be an all round hunter, one that can take down large animals and have the potential to reach out.

@caberslash an excellent suggestion as i do not own a .22LR. may as well get one as they are so darn cheap. I would consider myself a competent shot, with decent knowledge base of the principles of shooting well and accurately enough through the forces and have done some target shooting with the ARA. My Mrs is in the GB Biathlon squad, and excellent biathlon rifle shot and we do train together occasionally. Certainly not saying i have enough to go long range, but a foundation. Proper experience dialing for variables is where im more inexperienced, so your suggestion of a trainer rifle could help save a bob or two!

While I have the 270 win and done a bit of work at 500 yards the 6.5 PRC is interesting I might consider one in the right platform. The advice about practice at long range to learn drift is quite correct. Handloading has its own reward in the learning process. Best wishes for good shooting.

 

[Ackers-303]

There, fixed that for you.

While you are at it, learn to reload on the .308; loads of data out there and if you rifle does not shoot the M118LR load (175 SMK seated to around 2.8" COAL with a suitable CCI or Federal Large Rifle Primer, and some 40-odd grains of N140 or similar powder) then the rifle is probably a dud.

Example of this being used competently out to 1,000 yards:

that video says it all really! I have a space slot for .308 on my FAC, so I could use it for a second hand/low cost build to really abuse at the range without my wallet screaming at me (well not too much anyway)

Ill look into reloading like many have mentioned, but as you could appreciate it just take up more time and initial investment. But as @Apthorpe mentioned, it doesnt have to cost a fortune.

 

[User00040]

Ill look into reloading like many have mentioned, but as you could appreciate it just take up more time and initial investment. But as @Apthorpe mentioned, it doesnt have to cost a fortune.

Get a .308 Lee Loader/Lee Hand Press or get a second hand press if you have enough space.

Read this too, (maybe twice) it's by Richard Lee who invented all the gear that Lee sells, answers a lot of questions that will come up down the line: http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading Manuals/Modern Reloading 2nd Edition by Richard Lee - ocr.pdf

Startup costs are high for reloading and it takes a few hundred rounds at least before you start 'profiting' off the investment, but understanding what goes on is worth the money, time and hassle.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

The 6.5 PRC confuses me
I am not sure what question it is answering
The velocity increase per grain of powder indicates diminishing returns

If we look at raw horse power comparatively
6.5prc
60 gr of powder to push a 143gr 3000fps....out of a 26” test barrel

I can do better than that with a 22” barrel and a 145gr ELD-x in .270 with less powder
3150 to be precise...

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I also TOTALLY agree with this.

I shot at 300y at Bisley with my 300wm a few months ago - there was a solid but by no means hurricane force wind coming from left to right (maybe 12-15mph) and I would say I was having to aim off a good foot to 18" in order to be in the bull. That would totally take a perceived H/L shot into gut shot territory.

Which as an aside is why I'm always skeptical when I see these posts on FB of a head shot deer and the comment is "pErFeCt HeAd sHoT - 927 yArDs AnD hE wAs DoWn". Ok pal - 9.27y is more like it but sure...

Once you learn your holds/dial there really isn't much to be concerned about. I was actively shooting my 17hmr out beyond 250 yards. I also shoot my 22lr on gongs beyond that. Shouldn't be any mither for any centrefire in all honesty. People can and do frequently shoot extended ranges successfully, they don't sit and argue though, they actually get out of there armchair and go shoot!

 

[Dawnrazor]

Are we conjuring up new cartridges now a days for the sake of it?
Some of the "benefits" seem marginal at best.

 

[User00033]

@stubear, you must have been shooting bricks to have to hold 18" in a 15mph wind at 300yd!

@Edinburgh Rifles, the 6.5 PRC will do a lot better than that with the right powder, out of a 24" barrel.

@Dawnrazor, have a look at the cartridges list in Quickload. It's not like this phenomenon is anything new!

 

[6pt-sika]

No idea, not sure anyone has got to the end of barrel life yet. These are hunting rifles, not benchrest, so after initial load development, round count is generally low for years and years.

Kinda the same boat as my 26 Nosler . They say 900-1200 but I think that’s based on the shooting practices of the tacticool crowd . Mine had about 180 thru it working up loads for several 130’s snd 140’s . And now it might be fired 12-20 times a year . So based on me shooting it 20 shots each year it’ll easily last me thirty years and in thirty years I’ll be in months of 90 so unless there’s a drastic change that rifle won’t be rebarreled in my lifetime .