Doctor's letter and marker on medical records

[bobthedug]

Bruce hope you do not mind me jumping in on this for bobthedug.

It is in the January 2020 minutes

https://www.npcc.police.uk/documents/FOI%20Performance%20Monitoring/FELWG%20Minutes%20Jan%202020.pdf

Medical
DO Gave update re. recent brief discussion with policing minister, and his intent to meet in the near future to discuss medical arrangements.
The issue of start-up business doing medical checks was discussed, and NB critically asked for clarity for all forces whether policing should accept medical screening not completed by an individual’s GP. DO drew the analogy of locum doctors, and how he would find it difficult to argue against the views of a locum, provided they had full access to an individual’s medical records, but we should not forget the overarching secondary aim of enduring medical markers, and forces must ensure there is some method in place to satisfy this need. DO suggests until the stat guidance comes out, his recommendation is that third party screening is accepted solong as it is signed off by a GMC registered doctor with full access to an individual’s medical records - The correspondence should include a declaration to this effect. Notifications for enduring medical markers must also be sent to the applicants GP by licensing departments on grant. ACTION – NB to circulate the FELWG position until the HO guidance is clear and addresses the same.
National Police Chiefs’ Co

Thanks for that.
To be honest though, I would have thought that who ever completes the form , is indeed a GMC registered doctor. Particularly if they are charging for doing so.
I doubt if there are figures available but , unfortunately, the cases where an applicant has been "uneconomical with the truth" on their application regarding their medical history may be more than we would think.

 

[slider]

Bruce hope you do not mind me jumping in on this for bobthedug.

It is in the January 2020 minutes

https://www.npcc.police.uk/documents/FOI%20Performance%20Monitoring/FELWG%20Minutes%20Jan%202020.pdf

Medical
DO Gave update re. recent brief discussion with policing minister, and his intent to meet in the near future to discuss medical arrangements.
The issue of start-up business doing medical checks was discussed, and NB critically asked for clarity for all forces whether policing should accept medical screening not completed by an individual’s GP. DO drew the analogy of locum doctors, and how he would find it difficult to argue against the views of a locum, provided they had full access to an individual’s medical records, but we should not forget the overarching secondary aim of enduring medical markers, and forces must ensure there is some method in place to satisfy this need. DO suggests until the stat guidance comes out, his recommendation is that third party screening is accepted solong as it is signed off by a GMC registered doctor with full access to an individual’s medical records - The correspondence should include a declaration to this effect. Notifications for enduring medical markers must also be sent to the applicants GP by licensing departments on grant. ACTION – NB to circulate the FELWG position until the HO guidance is clear and addresses the same.
National Police Chiefs’ Co

Don't see how a third party Doctor could be legally excluded. They are still bound by the GMC code of conduct.

Since "My" GP retired about 20 years ago I have don't think I have seen the same doctor twice and I have no idea who my allocated GP is. The Practice have divulged that they are a "training Practice" and therefore have I high turnover of locums. If fact they even tried to use their decision to use locums as part of their reason for trying to blackmail me out of £200.

The Locum has to sift and review records with know knowledge or contact with or of me. How is this any different from Medcert?

My FEO has confirmed that she and Poilice Scotland in general, are content for applicants to use 3rd part providers.

 

[Liveonce]

Thanks for that.
To be honest though, I would have thought that who ever completes the form , is indeed a GMC registered doctor. Particularly if they are charging for doing so.
I doubt if there are figures available but , unfortunately, the cases where an applicant has been "uneconomical with the truth" on their application regarding their medical history may be more than we would think.

But interestingly if you look on companies house and look up medcert none of the names in the business I could find in the online register GMC of practicing GPs.

MEDCERT LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

MEDCERT LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

search results

A GMC Website page that might be of interest to you.

www.gmc-uk.org

Would be good to know from anybody who has used Medcert the name of the GP signing the report.

Or I am not searching correctly.

 

[slider]

But interestingly if you look on companies house and look up medcert none of the names in the business I could find in the online register GMC of practicing GPs.

MEDCERT LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

MEDCERT LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

search results

A GMC Website page that might be of interest to you.

www.gmc-uk.org

Would be good to know from anybody who has used Medcert the name of the GP signing the report.

Or I am not searching correctly.

The directors of Ford Motor Company are not necessarily mechanics...

 

[slider]

but they do employ mechanics

 

[Liveonce]

I doubt if there are figures available but , unfortunately, the cases where an applicant has been "uneconomical with the truth" on their application regarding their medical history may be more than we would think.

The home office statistics published every year have shown no abnormal statistical deviation since each police force implemented mandatory medical reports, so one must conclude the numbers uneconomical with the truth were very small.

Statistics on firearm and shotgun certificates, England and Wales: April 2019 to March 2020

Statistics on firearm and shotgun certificates issued by police forces in England and Wales under the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997.

www.gov.uk

 

[Liveonce]

but they do employ mechanics

Indeed but do they pay GP hourly labour rate?
£50.00 for all the overheads, admin, and pay a third party GP, my GP put a much higher value to his hourly rate than £50.00

 

[Jamsie]

Indeed but do they pay GP hourly labour rate?
£50.00 for all the overheads, admin, and pay a third party GP, my GP put a much higher value to his hourly rate than £50.00

I don't really care what hourly rate they pay their employees as long as they perform the service for the agreed rate and in good time. How your GP rates his value is neither here nor there tbh.

Jamsie

 

[Liveonce]

This is one of the two at Medcert

BASC council candidate - Daryn Hufton-Rees

Explore Basc Council Candidate Daryn Hufton Rees with Shooting UK. Get the latest shooting and gundog news, expert analysis, and field updates from across the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

DR DARYN KENNETH HUFTON-REES director information. Free director information. Director id 918432917

DR DARYN KENNETH HUFTON-REES - ACTIVE - Director ID is 918432917 And address is Great Stony, High Street, Chipping Ongar, Essex, CM5 0AD - A free Director Summary including all company appointments.

companycheck.co.uk

All interesting, where is Sherlock Holmes when you need him

 

[Liveonce]

I don't really care what hourly rate they pay their employees as long as they perform the service for the agreed rate and in good time. How your GP rates his value is neither here nor there tbh.

Jamsie

Indeed so long as a registered GMC GP is actually signing the reports ?

Their is an alternative who is in the GMC list, I will use them next rather than pay significantly more to my own greedy GP.

Medical reports for UK firearms and shotgun certificates

Get a fast medical report for your firearm and shotgun application by a fully qualified GP. No face to face appointments necessary. Flat fee, simple process.

firearmsmedicalreports.co.uk

 

[slider]

This is one of the two at Medcert

BASC council candidate - Daryn Hufton-Rees

Explore Basc Council Candidate Daryn Hufton Rees with Shooting UK. Get the latest shooting and gundog news, expert analysis, and field updates from across the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

DR DARYN KENNETH HUFTON-REES director information. Free director information. Director id 918432917

DR DARYN KENNETH HUFTON-REES - ACTIVE - Director ID is 918432917 And address is Great Stony, High Street, Chipping Ongar, Essex, CM5 0AD - A free Director Summary including all company appointments.

companycheck.co.uk

All interesting, where is Sherlock Holmes when you need him

my Medcert letter was signed by a different GP.

They have provided an efficient and courtesy service, answering the phone a queries promptly. Unlike my local GP's Practice whose receptions appear to be on a mission to be as uncooperative as possible

 

[mealiejimmy]

The home office statistics published every year have shown no abnormal statistical deviation since each police force implemented mandatory medical reports, so one must conclude the numbers uneconomical with the truth were very small.

Statistics on firearm and shotgun certificates, England and Wales: April 2019 to March 2020

Statistics on firearm and shotgun certificates issued by police forces in England and Wales under the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997.

www.gov.uk

I did an FOI to police Scotland in 2018 to ask how many certificate renewals had been refused because the applicant told porkies about their medical condition.
At that time, more than 2 years into their "No GP letter = No certificate" policy, a grand total of 2 people had been refused.
So yes, the numbers are very small and do not justify the additional work for the FEOs and GPs and the additional cost for most applicants.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[bobthedug]

I did an FOI to police Scotland in 2018 to ask how many certificate renewals had been refused because the applicant told porkies about their medical condition.
At that time, more than 2 years into their "No GP letter = No certificate" policy, a grand total of 2 people had been refused.
So yes, the numbers are very small and do not justify the additional work for the FEOs and GPs and the additional cost for most applicants.

Cheers

Bruce

I was not going to relate this story but I will as it illustrates the point I made about the numbers.
A long time FAC holder was "uneconomical with the truth" on his renewal. Very decent chap who had suffered a terrible family tragedy and sought comfort in the drink which led him into a very dark place. There was a family intervention as they were aware that he was renewing his FAC.
He was informally questioned and admitted his wrongdoings with his paperwork. He was under the doctors care and was suffering from a mental illness. A quickphone call to the doctors provided confirmation.
Now, rightly or wrongly, it was put to him that there were 2 options. 1) He withdraws his renewal, sells his rifle and gets his cheque returned. A few years down the line when he gets himself sorted and has been well for a few years, he can re apply.
2) Continues with his renewal, a formal investigation takes place. He gets done for making a false declaration, subject to report to PF and gets refused his certificate with the likelihood of never being being able to successfully apply in the future.
I doubt that such a scenario is unique.
Point is that false declarations happen. If, going by the figures you obtained, it averages one recorded case a year in Scotland.
If you look at the number of FAC holders in Scotland and compare that to the entire UK FAC holders, that 1 per year in Scotland, going by the numbers, equates to double figure numbers each year in the entire UK.
Many have referred to a Medical Report, in Scotland the GP simply ticks 4 boxes,signs and dates. If the applicant has indeed been treated for or suffering from certain illnesses, a Medical Report may well be requested.
This system is here to stay. GPs need to formalise an across the board response with an agreed price otherwise applicants will use the likes of Medicert and marker on medical records or not, the certificate will be granted, leaving an issue between police and medical.

 

[Liveonce]

I was not going to relate this story but I will as it illustrates the point I made about the numbers.
A long time FAC holder was "uneconomical with the truth" on his renewal. Very decent chap who had suffered a terrible family tragedy and sought comfort in the drink which led him into a very dark place. There was a family intervention as they were aware that he was renewing his FAC.
He was informally questioned and admitted his wrongdoings with his paperwork. He was under the doctors care and was suffering from a mental illness. A quickphone call to the doctors provided confirmation.
Now, rightly or wrongly, it was put to him that there were 2 options. 1) He withdraws his renewal, sells his rifle and gets his cheque returned. A few years down the line when he gets himself sorted and has been well for a few years, he can re apply.
2) Continues with his renewal, a formal investigation takes place. He gets done for making a false declaration, subject to report to PF and gets refused his certificate with the likelihood of never being being able to successfully apply in the future.
I doubt that such a scenario is unique.
Point is that false declarations happen. If, going by the figures you obtained, it averages one recorded case a year in Scotland.
If you look at the number of FAC holders in Scotland and compare that to the entire UK FAC holders, that 1 per year in Scotland, going by the numbers, equates to double figure numbers each year.
Many have referred to a Medical Report, in Scotland the GP simply ticks 4 boxes,signs and dates.If the applicant has indeed been treated for or suffering from certain illnesses, a Medical Report may well be requested.
This system is here to stay. GPs need to formalise an across the board response with an agreed price otherwise applicants will use the likes of Medicert and marker on medical records or not, the certificate will be granted, leaving an issue between police and medical.

Well said, it is here to stay, however it should be implemented in a quality way equally across all police forces and needs the applicants own registered GP to engage in the process even if that needs a change in GP contracts, the fee should also be fixed, fairly.
Using a GP other than the applicants registered GP because they will not engage in the process or are charging more than the £50 the “businesses” are, makes the process far from perfect and leaves it still open to fraudulent applications or no enduring marker on the applicants medical records that they own firearms.
The process is only as good as it’s weakest link.

 

[slider]

Well said, it is here to stay, however it should be implemented in a quality way equally across all police forces and needs the applicants own registered GP to engage in the process even if that needs a change in GP contracts, the fee should also be fixed, fairly.
Using a GP other than the applicants registered GP because they will not engage in the process or are charging more than the £50 the “businesses” are, makes the process far from perfect and leaves it still open to fraudulent applications or no enduring marker on the applicants medical records that they own firearms.
The process is only as good as it’s weakest link.

I agree with most of what you say, but referring back to my earlier post, access to the applicant register GP is becoming more and more problematic. Many firearms users will rarely see their nominated GP as retention of GP's (particularly in rural areas) become more difficult and more and more locum are used.

There has to be a strong case that a practice locum being asked to complete a medical form has no more knowledge of the patient that a 3rd party such as Medcert. As you say, medical forms are here to stay. I for one would be delighted for an across the board fee, instead of the £200 charged here. However to do the job really properly I suspect the process would need to be more rigorous and therefor we would all face a fairly hefty fee.

 

[Liveonce]

I agree with most of what you say, but referring back to my earlier post, access to the applicant register GP is becoming more and more problematic. Many firearms users will rarely see their nominated GP as retention of GP's (particularly in rural areas) become more difficult and more and more locum are used.

There has to be a strong case that a practice locum being asked to complete a medical form has no more knowledge of the patient that a 3rd party such as Medcert. As you say, medical forms are here to stay. I for one would be delighted for an across the board fee, instead of the £200 charged here. However to do the job really properly I suspect the process would need to be more rigorous and therefor we would all face a fairly hefty fee.

I also agree with most of what you say, at this time Medcert and others including some GPs must be doing a “proper” job and can do so for £50.00 or less. However how rigorous the process goal is, is a big question, I got my registered GP to complete the report for me, yet fortunately I have not seen my GP for many years, so that begs the question should you have to attend the GP for a “chat” before they complete the report, in which cases we could indeed face a hefty fee, mind you mine was hefty enough. Given some firearms owners may now chose to avoid seeking help from their GP for illnesses on the police list.
My view of it at the moment is that the GPs are enjoying the extra money with no come back on them and the Chief Constable gets a medical report to cover their back side if it all goes terrible wrong, so no come back on them.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Agreed, the whole process is simply a "cover your arse" exercise

Cheers

Bruce

 

[nicowilson]

my Medcert letter was signed by a different GP.

They have provided an efficient and courtesy service, answering the phone a queries promptly. Unlike my local GP's Practice whose receptions appear to be on a mission to be as uncooperative as possible

Same for me, and I checked the GP's registration on the GMC website and all was OK.

 

[Mista Shot]

Wait and See !!.
Friend of mine is now in the process of applying for FAC renewal from Suffolk Constabulary. Reluctant to pay the Dr.'s fee he has been told on good authority that if the police don't receive Doctors letter of approval within three weeks , the renewal will be granted . Five months ago reluctantly I coughed up 60 pounds to Dr. for my renewal. His surgery is only charging 20 pounds.
It's now a case of wait and see, watch this space , I will post the outcome in due course.

Update, last week my pal received his FAC & SGC renewal. He paid NO fee to Dr's surgery, around the same time his brother also applied for renewal of SGC also granted , no Dr's fee paid !

 

[BigBuff1959]

I've recently had a renewal and my GP had to confirm to the police that there was nothing on my medical records to cause concern. The GP had also to put a marker on those records to advise the police of possible future issues.

As my records now have a marker, would it be reasonable to assume that no further letters will be required for renewals as the GP would have already notified the police of any issues as they developed.