As a level headed reasonably/averagely educated man I remain astonished at the level of “ Conspiracy extremes” that get bannered about undermining society confidence in vaccines that may be the most important health and economical saviours in my lifetime. I respect everyone’s opinion to believe the earth is flat, we never landed on the moon and Lizard men are secretly running the world economy. However these People are not undermining the NHS, the economy and our chance to get back to normality. My other “drives me mad” issue with all the news feeds is when they constantly interview the general public, given the massive complexities of both Brexit and CV19 I am not interested in the BBC asking a bloke in Full sportswear and circa 20 stone standing outside Greggs at 4 in the afternoon how he sees it !!!
Any others cynical about a vaccine?
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Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Stop watching the MSN then. Simples
Implicit in that question is a belief that the proferred vaccine is the best bet for our collective good. Our responsibility to society is surely to influence policy makers to deliver strategies for our collective good. Mutely rolling up my sleeve is no such contribution.
The question as phrased attempts to paint anything other than unquestioning compliance as somehow amoral. That is just wrong
Medicos on this forum have already affirmed that the status of a person who takes a vaccine is no different from someone who has had the disease and developed immunity as a consequence. Why should the latter take a vaccine, however benign?
Asking how the Pfizer [or any other vaccine] product's efficacy is measured is valid. Mortality rate change will be near impossible to guage for obvious reasons and that meme places that in clear view. The only valid barometer would be ICU case numbers where the cause for admission is unambiguously C-19. And ever there...I would hope that the govt step up and start Invermectin treatment in some areas as a control.
Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Intelligent questioning on these matters does not make anyone a "conspiracy theorist" nor does it make them an anti-vaxxer (to use the insult being carelessly thrown around)
Far too many people are happy to quickly slap a label on people who have view-points that they do not agree with.
A convenient, lazy and shabby way to shut down debate, usually practiced by those who are either too polarised in their views to see the other perspective, or too lll-equipped to have a meaningful debate.
Whilst there are undoubtedly many extreme views, not only on this subject , but pretty much on any subject one may care to mention, if you feel people are being undermined
(which suggests you think "society" is gullible and unable to think for itself) that, in and of itself , is all the more reason for intelligent people to form their own opinion and not be led by those who you clearly think can make decisions for them.
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Wow, massive overreaction to my very balanced post, try a second reading, as you are making points I never referred to. Could be a conspiracy? Your not the bloke outside Greggs are you
Tazz, you equated criticism of the C-19 vaccine currently on offer with a "flat earth" mentality, conspiricist driven, by those who believe in Lizard men.
Like Ade8mm said, that cannot be seen as balanced. Patently it is an attempt to stifle constructive criticism with perjorative labels.
Try reading my post again, you have a fertile imagination and are seeing things that aren’t there. That’s how conspiracy’s start, I think you are the guy from Greggs
PS you might want to consider lightening up a touch could add years to your life
Haha, you mean the bloke that thinks Corbyn should still be PM.
anyways I saw 2 people today who have had the jab and no issues whatsoever so crack on, get vaccinated and get this herd immunity before the vaccine mutates making it useless anyway.
Its called taking one for the team.
shbangsteve
Well-Known Member
Too good not to share ? What utter cock. Some people will still get Covid and die after being vaccinated. But the thing is, far fewer people will catch the virus in the first place and the transmission rate will plummet. If everyone in our country caught Covid, 0.3% would die. However if 1% caught Covid only 0.003% would die. Vaccines have saved billions of lives throughout the world from smallpox, diphtheria, typhoid, polio, measles etc. Flu kills 18000 per year in the UK but without the vaccine, thousands more vulnerable people would die. FFS there are some nutters on here. I hope your FLOs are reading this and some of you can explain all your conspiracy theories to them before they issue with your cert.
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
caorach
Well-Known Member
In a sense we do influence policy makers when we vote in an election so it could be argued that the majority selected the policy makers that they believed could best run the country.
I hadn't thought of not taking the vaccine as being amoral but rather was just thinking of the physical reality of what had happened in the past and the best example I could come up with was going to war for the country as I imagine most people were not keen on this but they did it for the good of society as a whole. I can see, based on your comment, that this may be a matter of morality. I was thinking of it more as a personal decision based on a person's perception of their place in society and if they "owe" society anything but I can see that might be a moral decision.
However, my question was not framed on the basis of unquestioning compliance but rather the opposite in the sense that I was considering people who found compliance was against their personal will and they had genuine questions but they put that personal position aside in the hope that they could act for the good of all. I am very much of the opinion that very few people do anything unquestioningly, they might not consider the same factors that I do and so may come to a different answer which makes them appear like they haven't considered the facts but, in truth, what they've simply done is consider facts that I'm not aware of or that I chose to reject.
Whilst it is sensible to discuss even virtuous, arguing from a fixed position is pointless.
Simply you are for it (being vaccinated) or not. Keep it to yourself and lets get on with life.
I dont want to seem to sit in judgement, that's not my place, but most of this thread TO ME is benighted bollocks.
The true meaning of benighted is worth a read.
Simply you are for it (being vaccinated) or not. Keep it to yourself and lets get on with life.
I dont want to seem to sit in judgement, that's not my place, but most of this thread TO ME is benighted bollocks.
The true meaning of benighted is worth a read.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
With all due respect. In recent times The 2nd gulf war started in 2003 because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Now i was in Sweden at the time. Checking into SAS raddison. The check in clerk last name was Blix. I asked if he was related to Hans Blix and he said he is my uncle and he's coming home for Christmas. I asked him had he found any WMD? He said his uncle had found no WMD and don't believe what the governments are saying in the papers.
Years later he was right but hundreds of thosands dead, destabilized region after 17 years and, trillions of dollars wasted.
Forgive me if I'm skeptical about anything as important as this when governments are telling these actions are needed for me.
I fully respect your right to be sceptical as am I on many things and if you choose not to take the vaccine that’s fine by me it means I may get mine earlier
A mate just sent me a new video by an ex army major and ukip mp called Bloom having a rant about the latest lockdowns. Personally I'd rather listen to the advice of various doctors than random conspiracy and reset theorists. I haven't had it and don't want it, see you in the vaccine queue!
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
The arbitary rules about how to stop a pandemic like locking me and 6 million other Victorians in our homes for 23 hours a day for 4 months. Stopping parliament from sitting so there is no debate, extending state of emergency powers with no oversight, police arresting pensioners sitting along in parks, arresting pregnant women in houses for posting on Facebook. Western democracy has been thrown out as the government is ready to crush citizen rights as bad and as fast as the CCP over a not so deadly virus.
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Interesting point, 67K+ dead in the U.K. to date, I think most people would see that as deadly especially if it’s a member of your family who died amount the 67K Perhaps we should have stayed unlocked for longer, it’s worked well for the US only 300K dead
C-19 is deadly. When the novel SARS-CoV-2 virus hit in April 2020, we lost a lot of people. 2020 mortality overlaid on 5-year average in one ONS graphic shows that clearly. It also shows our Autumn curve did not depart from the average by much. [probably by less than the the February 2020 mortality dropped below the five-year average]
You might be right. 22 international studies agree that lockdowns did not reduce covid mortality rates. A Lancet published study included amongst those reports.
Critically, the lethal impacts of lockdowns are finally being quantified. Specifically, there has been a huge rise in deaths at home in 2020 compared with previous years. The BBC recently put that figure at 25 000. The overwhelming majority did not have "covid" on the death certificates.
Prof Kevin Conway made this statement at the end of November 2020:
The BMJ called it even earlier in their May 2020 analysis:
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