Poor grouping on a pre-owned rifle.

[phoebus]

Evening everyone.

I'll try to keep this brief.

A member on here has bought one of my guns that a local RFD sold on my behalf. The gun was a .204 Ruger and has seen at the most 200 rounds (I know this because I owned it from new and it's all I ever bought for it whilst in my possession). I didn't use the rifle for a good few months but took it out and checked zero and accuracy before I took it to the RFD to sell. That last outing with it I shot a rabbit at 424 Yards so safe to say, it shot fine.

The member on here has told me it won't make a group less than 4 inch with different scopes, ammo and moderators and even no mod.

I can only imagine how frustrated he is with his purchase. He's said he's given it a good scrub and loads of crap came out of the barrel and thinks it may have been stored poorly at the RFD (they've had it since December 2023).

Now, obviously the member can return the rifle for his money back and then mess around with variations which isn't ideal at all. My question is where does this leave me and what can I do about it? I highly doubt the RFD in question will accept any liability for poor storage and selling a gun that won't group and they probably won't want to put it back up for sale after it's been returned because it doesn't group. Any advice on this matter is greatly appreciated.

 

[finnbear270]

If it was well known to be a tack driver when going into store or on the shelf, then the deterioration has only one source?

 

[phoebus]

If it was well known to be a tack driver when going into store or on the shelf, then the deterioration has only one source?

Exactly my thoughts but how do you go about arguing the toss and proving it?

 

[triggertrix]

Maybe it’s his shooting? Maybe meet up with him and check he’s got it set up correctly if he’s near you?

 

[finnbear270]

Exactly my thoughts but how do you go about arguing the toss and proving it?

How long out of your hands?, was it cleaned properly and oiled when dropped off?

 

[finnbear270]

Has it been to a range with the RFD for a prospective buyer in the past?

 

[phoebus]

Maybe it’s his shooting? Maybe meet up with him and check he’s got it set up correctly if he’s near you?

I think he's about an hour and a half away, maybe closer. I thought about this but he's had the gun nearly two weeks now so he really needs to take it back to the shop before they refuse to take it back.

 

[phoebus]

Has it been to a range with the RFD for a prospective buyer in the past?

I couldn't tell you. The RFD has a short range in the shop, I think 25 metres, maybe longer. I've not had any contact with them in the time they've had it. They haven't even called me to say it's sold! Yes, it was cleaned and lined up before taking to the shop. I was hoping they'd buy it off me rather than offer a commission sale if I'm honest. Out of my hands since December 2023.

 

[Greenmist]

Did you sell with scope, mod etc or just the rifle?

 

[Heym SR20]

Firstly 2nd hand rifles are 2nd hand rifles. A huge amount will have changed especially if a different scope mounts etc have been added. What ammunition is being used?

What was the state of the barrel when you handed it to the RFD? I assume nice and clean, but lightly oiled?

Any rifle standing in a gunshop will pick up dust down the barrel, especially if it has been sat for a while. Anybody buying a 2nd hand rifle should at least run a cleaning rod down the bore before buying, and give it a good clean before shooting.

So the new owner has shot it, then cleaned it and lots of crap coming out the barrel. Hardly surprising, as shooting ammo in a rifle causes a grubby barrel.

A rifle doesn't loose accuracy just standing on a shelf, unless the storage gives rise to lots of rust and pitting. If the scope and mounts have remained on the rifle, and again haven’t been messed with, then the rifle / mounts / scope won’t loose accuracy.

I suspect that given the new owner has changed just about everything, and that it worked well in your hands I suspect the reason is in the hands of the new owner.

Friends who are RFDs constantly have a number of buyers claiming that the rifle doesn't group. The RFD takes it to the range and shoots a tiny little group. There is a lot more to an accurate shooting rifle, scope, moderator, ammo and shooter package than just the rifle.

 

[buckfever]

My howa. 223 only likes federal 55gr or norma 55gr tip strike. Tried other brands and was getting flyers all over the place no groups. Bought gun second hand and was told likes federal sp. Took me a while to find bt rounds that it likes. Bullet on Bullet until I made the mistake of cleaning barrel out. Flyers all over the place took a few boxes to get back to Bullet on Bullet. Has the new owner tried the same rounds you was using?

 

[phoebus]

Yes, barrel cleaned and then a patch with gun oil on it pushed through. I tend not to oil guns too much, oil attracts dirt and grit etc. I tend to use a dry, PTFE based lubricant unless a need for actual oil is required.
It was sold as gun only, no mod or scope. It's been at the RFD since December 2023, not sure if it's been shot on their range or not. They advertised the gun as a 9.5/10 condition wise after inspecting it to whatever degree they inspect rifles to.
I used Remington 32gr accutips exclusively purely because it's all I could get hold of at the time (shortly after 2020). The new owner has tried Hornady, Remington and Nosler, two different scopes and two different mods but still won't group less than 4 inch. The only other thing I can think of is the stock it's in. I bought the gun with the hogue stock but immediately put it in to a GRS Berserk which I took off and sold to a member on here shortly before taking the gun to the RFD in the original stock which I never used took any shots with.

 

[finnbear270]

Crown / Moderator issue?

 

[splash]

I had used a light weight rifle and bought the lightest moderator I could find.
It shot high and 9” left after I had adjusted the scope to maximum, I put a S5 moderator on it and it shot perfectly .
It became my favourite rifle

 

[Greenmist]

Good chance the stock is the issue after your last post, worth suggesting taking it out of the stock, full clean then refit, torque correctly and ensure no pressure points etc

 

[Wilbur]

its either the nut behind the bolt or different ammo,surely

 

[buckfever]

Yes, barrel cleaned and then a patch with gun oil on it pushed through. I tend not to oil guns too much, oil attracts dirt and grit etc. I tend to use a dry, PTFE based lubricant unless a need for actual oil is required.
It was sold as gun only, no mod or scope. It's been at the RFD since December 2023, not sure if it's been shot on their range or not. They advertised the gun as a 9.5/10 condition wise after inspecting it to whatever degree they inspect rifles to.
I used Remington 32gr accutips exclusively purely because it's all I could get hold of at the time (shortly after 2020). The new owner has tried Hornady, Remington and Nosler, two different scopes and two different mods but still won't group less than 4 inch. The only other thing I can think of is the stock it's in. I bought the gun with the hogue stock but immediately put it in to a GRS Berserk which I took off and sold to a member on here shortly before taking the gun to the RFD in the original stock which I never used took any shots with.

The stock could be touching barrel. The hogue stocks are flimsy if its like what's on mine. If a bipod is fitted he could be putting to much down weight on it when shooting. They cheap stocks I cut around the front of mine where it hugs the barrel to make a bigger gap from stock to barrel. Never had bother with mine touching but read alot about people having problems on a howa group and a lot of the time this sorted the problem. Was the first thing I tried before realising it was just fussy on bullets

 

[finnbear270]

^Experienced this myself with a Howa 7mm WSM

 

[Trickyd66]

I am no expert, but if as you say you put the old stock back on then passed it on for sale without ensuring it was still a accurate as you say it was, there is probably an issue with its mounting in the stock. Had you fired it prior to sale it would have shown then.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Did the RFD provide the purchaser with a defined accuracy guarantee? Perhaps even a group test target as supplied by the former owner?

This sounds as though its going to get 'messy'.

K