You're not though, are you..
So now that we have completely left the EU...
- Thread starter Heym SR20
- Start date
dartmoordog
Well-Known Member
First line: Much better.
Second line: So that means you will stop bleating like a typical remoaning loser then.
Third line: Your in Germany!........Good here in Devon, England thanks. If I wanted to live in Germany I could have done it years ago, no thanks.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Nope, not remoaning at all anymore, just observing that you get what you vote for, look at Trump as an example. I"m good hope youall are too.
"Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation." -- Jean Monnet
Message ends!
OVER AND OUT
Message ends!
OVER AND OUT
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
I think they said that about the 3rd reich too !
The EU WAS a good idea in principle, a trade organisation spanning Europe?
The problem was/is , that is not really why it was set up.
It was always about moving Europe into a a federalist superstate, the smoke had barely cleared the battlefields of WW2 before they were planning it.
The best bit is , they thought they could sneak all the law and politics in without anyone noticing
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Because it would be comprised of groups of very disparate people with different views and cultures and would eventually tear itself apart . Canada has two official languages , we've gone through two attempted separations with Quebec and now a potential one with Alberta and Saskatchewan in the future , it has been very ugly . The US has endured a civil war and even now is deeply divided , that's in a country which has one official language , but in actuality is composed of semi autonomous states like you suggest . The fact that most European countries consider themselves far superior to their neighbours and , in some cases , deeply dislike them , wouldn't help . Don't get me wrong , it's not a bad idea , but I doubt it would work . Brexit in itself gives an idea what it would lead to , countries deeply divided with the potential for massive civil unrest .
AB
Not sure anyone being invaded, enslaved and/or slaughtered thought so...
Much as anyone may dislike the EU, I think comparisons with the third Reich miss some fairly salient differences in intent, process and outcome!
Oh I don’t know - indoctrinate the children firmly enough and put dissenters in the gulags. Should weld things together pretty sharpish...
Sadly, I think you’re right. A big, harmonious and properly democratic super state is a lovely utopian fantasy, but there is almost certainly an upper limit to both size and cultural variation, above which the whole thing becomes extremely unstable.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
It is said that the purpose of the EU (which had its roots in the European Coal and Steel Community was to prevent, yet again, the Germans and the French going to war over who controlled Belgium's coal. That's a simplification. But to understand some of the reason for the EU it is necessary to know the history of Europe.
For those in Lorraine they were variously not French, then French in the late 1700s, then in 1870 German, then French from 1919, then German in 1940, then finally French in 1945. Poland as "Poland" or as the "Duchy of Warsaw" again has disappeared, re-emerged, disappeared again and then one more re-emerged.
And whilst Britain has seen battles fought on its soil even after the English Civil War and as late as 1688, 1715 and 1745 has not been, as such, invaded and occupied by "foreign" nations as have most nations on continental Europe at one time or another. So the acceptance of the idea and ideal of the European Union may perhaps always be more welcomed across the Channel.
For those in Lorraine they were variously not French, then French in the late 1700s, then in 1870 German, then French from 1919, then German in 1940, then finally French in 1945. Poland as "Poland" or as the "Duchy of Warsaw" again has disappeared, re-emerged, disappeared again and then one more re-emerged.
And whilst Britain has seen battles fought on its soil even after the English Civil War and as late as 1688, 1715 and 1745 has not been, as such, invaded and occupied by "foreign" nations as have most nations on continental Europe at one time or another. So the acceptance of the idea and ideal of the European Union may perhaps always be more welcomed across the Channel.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
Of course they didnt.
But this is the point , no one envisages that 'at the time' , but when you have your legal and economic independence swept away by the 'need' for greater integration, its not long before your national identity and culture are similarly swept away too.
You may scoff at this , but EU stalwarts like Verhofstadt have actually said that nationalism=national identity, is the 'enemy' , hence the ONLY way forward is closer integration and the superstate.
Forcing nations into a project they didnt sign up for, using economic coercion and bullying, whilst telling them to start losing the trappings of their unique identities does not a 4th reich make, BUT its most definitely a good starting point.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
I blame Kenneth Clark; had he not made that series 'Civilisation' we might have still been as ignorant as cavemen...
Except...what the EU actually built instead was a self-electing ruling council with a dog-and-pony house of over-paid lapdogs attached.
But AB's words dismantle the superstate notion very well: Europe's inhabitants are too disparate for the viability of a superstate overlay.
It is far wiser for Europeans to broker apolitical pan-national trading alliances between truly sovereign nations. A 21st century iteration of the Hanseatic league concept sounds about right.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
You cannot even get the brits together, ie Cornwall vs Yorkshire their prides and attitudes are still festering away. It is human nature to distrust folk from over the hill, was always so. Will not change soon.
Come on Mungo, there are far more fun things to fantasise about
The simple answer is that there is, and has never been, any sort of democratic majority in favour of it in any country, let alone across the continent. Because all people and cultures aren't the same.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
There certainly are...Come on Mungo, there are far more fun things to fantasise about
Not in public there aren’t...Come on Mungo, there are far more fun things to fantasise about
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