Whilst I am aware of this debate, I wouldn't say I am that phased by a ban on the sale and use of lead shot or bullets. Other people with a tinkering mindset (not me) have shown that non-lead can work fine on deer and wildfowl. Yes I have beautiful old non-steel proofed guns, no I am not going to get them butchered or re-barreled, so will face an increase in the cost of cartridges, but I don't shoot enough with shotguns for this to matter. I'll move over to non-lead one day, the choice of ammo will get wider and wider, but life will go on, I am sure.
EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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Agree with this.
And also one has to remember the difference between the US and UK hunting seasons. We have far longer seasons, far fewer people hunt and (at least thus far) every estate I've shot on bar one has had a dead pit to dispose of gralloch - and if you bury it theres no issue with raptors eating it and getting poisoned. And even if it isnt buried I cant imagine there is much of it about on any given day to create an issue. How many people have genuinely come across gralloch whilst out walking?
In the US they have way more people that hunt and very short seasons. I dont know what their gralloch disposal processes are but if you have a mad 4 weeks where every man and his dog is out hunting, and the gralloch is generally left out to be eaten by other animals then ok maybe I can buy that two weeks of eating nothing but the lead filled gralloch littering the hillsides is going to be enough to give raptors lead poisoning and there be enough evidence to prove it.
are dead pits still allowed and in use. I thought these went out years ago
Lead Ammunition - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
www.gwct.org.uk
Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
And another one that’s sold us down the river like bascLead Ammunition - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
Benelli m2
Well-Known Member
I'm stocking up with .25 Hades pellets already
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
In Scotland out on the open Hill raptors eating gralloch's is much more of an issue. And am not aware of any estate that I have hunted on disposing of gralloch in a dead pit. It's left out in the open and doesn't take very long for waste disposal contractors to remove it.
I use non toxic ammunition now. I find it works very well in my rifles. Its accurate and kills quickly and cleanly and doesn't make a mess of the carcass. I am also not risking eating any lead, nor putting lead into the food chain, whether that's my family and friends, or the wildlife that is eating the remains.
And in the greater scheme of things the additional cost is marginal.
I also use non toxic shot on the Foreshore because its a legal requirement and it works well. In my other shotguns I will be switching across because there has been a lot of development, and having been involved with the science I am taking conscious choice not to expose my family and friends to unnecessary lead.
It's not because pink lefty, or because I am part of a greater conspiracy, its a conscious decision. Technology has moved on, safety and risk factors have move on. Yes a Jaguar e-Type, a Ferrari 250 GTB4 or a Mark 2 Golf GTI are beautiful cars, and absolutely those that are still around should be loved and cherished - but I would n't want to crash one. Modern cars have much better performance, are much safer and much cleaner
Jagare
Well-Known Member
So they have no idea how many birds die of lead poisoning so they make up a number and then do the same with birds affected by lead poisoning. Lots of , Might be, could be's and perhaps's in that article. Birds suffer when injured by lead shot? Well no sh1t Sherlock. Being wounded with non toxic shot must be a positive laugh for the birds then.Lead Ammunition - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Last week, EU regulations were published that are scheduled to ban lead shot in and around wetlands from February 2023 onwards.
The regulations are unworkable and unenforceable and will make it illegal to use or carry lead shot within 100m of any wetland, whose broad definition will encompass everything from a puddle to a peatland.
BASC worked closely with the Federation of European Hunting Associations (FACE) and colleagues across Europe to try to ensure that the European Commission’s proposals would be focused on reducing the risks of wetland birds ingesting lead shot.
Most EU member states already have national laws in place restricting the use of lead shot in wetlands except for Poland, Ireland, Romania, Slovenia and Malta. The proposals were in effect using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, albeit the 20-year intransigence in some countries against any form of legislation since the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) has certainly not helped matters.
Whilst several risible proposals were removed during the drafting process the final regulations are not fit for purpose, only 52% of MEPs supported them, and they remain open to legal challenge before they take effect in 2023.
It has taken us more than 20 years to adapt to the existing lead shot rules in the UK and if the new EU regulations were made law here in less than two years’ time it would be incredibly damaging to the progress made thus far. That is because the EU regulations would effectively ban the use and possession of lead shot across the majority of land due to the broad definition of wetland being used and the 100m buffer zone.
The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland.
However, there is a risk that Northern Ireland will be forced to adopt the new laws because under the terms of the Brexit deal NI must continue to implement new EU regulations on chemicals and this includes lead. Given how wet the climate is in NI the broad definition of wetland would result in a lead shot ban across most of the country.
BASC is working with FACE to stop this happening and we have highlighted the issue with the NI Environment Minister.
The regulations are unworkable and unenforceable and will make it illegal to use or carry lead shot within 100m of any wetland, whose broad definition will encompass everything from a puddle to a peatland.
BASC worked closely with the Federation of European Hunting Associations (FACE) and colleagues across Europe to try to ensure that the European Commission’s proposals would be focused on reducing the risks of wetland birds ingesting lead shot.
Most EU member states already have national laws in place restricting the use of lead shot in wetlands except for Poland, Ireland, Romania, Slovenia and Malta. The proposals were in effect using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, albeit the 20-year intransigence in some countries against any form of legislation since the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) has certainly not helped matters.
Whilst several risible proposals were removed during the drafting process the final regulations are not fit for purpose, only 52% of MEPs supported them, and they remain open to legal challenge before they take effect in 2023.
It has taken us more than 20 years to adapt to the existing lead shot rules in the UK and if the new EU regulations were made law here in less than two years’ time it would be incredibly damaging to the progress made thus far. That is because the EU regulations would effectively ban the use and possession of lead shot across the majority of land due to the broad definition of wetland being used and the 100m buffer zone.
The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland.
However, there is a risk that Northern Ireland will be forced to adopt the new laws because under the terms of the Brexit deal NI must continue to implement new EU regulations on chemicals and this includes lead. Given how wet the climate is in NI the broad definition of wetland would result in a lead shot ban across most of the country.
BASC is working with FACE to stop this happening and we have highlighted the issue with the NI Environment Minister.
Thanks Conor BASC
The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland.
That is good news and wish you ever success with regards to NI.
Likewise will BREXIT mean even if in 2022 the EU vote for a total ban on the use of lead it will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland?
Ref: Towards sustainable outdoor shooting and fishing – ECHA proposes restrictions on lead use - All news - ECHA
The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland.
That is good news and wish you ever success with regards to NI.
Likewise will BREXIT mean even if in 2022 the EU vote for a total ban on the use of lead it will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland?
Ref: Towards sustainable outdoor shooting and fishing – ECHA proposes restrictions on lead use - All news - ECHA
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As mentioned above, lead, hundreds of tons of it, mercury and arsenic, let alone poisonous gas shells were left in abundance after WW2 and from a recent quote;-
Crops from these areas should be continuously monitored by the French and European government but there is some doubt as to whether this is actually being done enough or even at all.
So, lead is a real enough problem to ban lead shot which might be ingested by wildlife and might be the cause of death of those species who actually find some to eat. Yet in the most heavily lead polluted areas in the entire world, the French and European Governments give not a toss about human health from crops growing in lead - rich soils .
BASC agreed with others to a voluntary ban on lead in firearms for animal welfare - maybe they should all take their spades on their summer hollies and dig up some of this stuff to protect humans.
Dare I suggest there has been another agenda running here ?
Crops from these areas should be continuously monitored by the French and European government but there is some doubt as to whether this is actually being done enough or even at all.
So, lead is a real enough problem to ban lead shot which might be ingested by wildlife and might be the cause of death of those species who actually find some to eat. Yet in the most heavily lead polluted areas in the entire world, the French and European Governments give not a toss about human health from crops growing in lead - rich soils .
BASC agreed with others to a voluntary ban on lead in firearms for animal welfare - maybe they should all take their spades on their summer hollies and dig up some of this stuff to protect humans.
Dare I suggest there has been another agenda running here ?
What's all this crape I hear about lead poisoning and lead doing raptors in. It may if introduced by a gun but that is against the law.
If they are dying just because we use lead to shoot game or deer there's something radically wrong in my area. They are absolutely thriving.there's hundreds of em, perhaps a little lead in their diet does them good, it seems to work well for the Badgers too.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
These f'kin' idiots will grab onto anything. Tedious people.
It is a very well established fact that even small traces of lead can kill captive raptors, I doubt very much their wild counterparts will be immune. How big an issue it is/could be is of course open to discussion.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Conor, the proposals are only unworkable if you insist on using lead shot, they’re as enforceable as the current regulations governing use of lead shot in wetlands.
And that’s the whole point, to ban lead shot.
One way or another the EU is going to kick a ban down our necks, its not because of the science, it’s because the various committees and commissioners have decided on our behalf that a lead ban is a good thing.
Neo-liberal politics in action.
Our area is heavily shot over so some unrecovered game will be eaten by raptors.
As I have said they must be immune because in the past two years raptors have doubled, with kites more than trebling. That's discussion.
Phil375
Active Member
Lead shot on fishing line discarded on the bank and in the margins was the biggest problem, making non lead more expensive stopped most anglers discarding it to re use
Must certainly be eating something to increase at that rate. Fact still remains, they will not be immune.
If that's the case I'll have to invest in more lead to scatter.
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