DMQ level 1 and 2 changes

I haven't seen the new target that will be used but it's long been accepted that the kill zone on the existing target isn't quite correct. On top of that from what I have read on here they will also be introducing a second kill zone for the coup de grace head shots at the shortest range.
Mike
I don't believe the "kill zone" on the nondescript DMQ deer silhouette was ever meant to be representative of where best to place the killing heart/lung shot on a deer....it was simply a defined "target" area in which the candidate was required to place six shots from the required shooting positions as a test of shooting skills.....If I was RCO for the assessment I always reminded the candidates that it was just a "target" and not a deer.
 
Level 2 used to look like a better reflection of the fact that someone could stalk a deer and meet certain standard.

I am not convinced that has necessarily been compromised by the latest changes whereby the AW can point out to the Candidate an unobserved deer. In fact having now had some time to read the detail and consider the change, I think it is on balance a good thing.

I say that based on the fact that witnessed stalks can frequently result in outings with no deer shot. This is not because the deer are not there, or because the Candidate isn't competent, but because the Candidate is often stalking on unfamiliar ground, pursuing unfamiliar deer - all whilst being observed by an unfamiliar AW! That's a pretty stressful situation.

The Candidate may never visit that same ground again, or stalk the same species again, so why make spotting the deer on that ground a condition of successfully completing an ICR? Remember that DSC2 is "a practical based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically". Does someone pointing out a deer to you significantly compromise that? I am not convinced it does.

Consider that, as the AW, I have stalked that same ground for many years. I know the deer's habits, as a result of which I am probably more attuned to where deer might be found. Note that I say "more attuned", and not "infallible". In guiding I always tell clients to tell me if they spot a deer, and not just assume that I have. Being an AW or guide does not make me a stalking ninja. I am just someone who has been lucky enough to stalk the same ground for a good few years and built up some experience of the resident deer's habits.

I can recall several situations in the past on witnessed stalks where I have seen deer that the Candidate has not. In my mind I was desperately willing the Candidate to see them. In one case the Candidate most frequently stalked red and fallow but we happened to be on ground with a lot of muntjac. They had never even seen a muntjac before, and were unlikely to see one again. So why should spotting a muntjac suddenly be a measure of their competence? Much easier to just say "there's a muntjac over there" and then let them get on with what's important - the stalk itself.

Not spotting a deer is not a "fail" - if that was the case, and we are honest with ourselves, we would all be failures. The difference is that if you do it too frequently you will just be a hungry hunter for longer!
 
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I don't think you're wrong Carl. The new Level 2 could be called 'Level 1+' and will certainly leave a market for a more onerous qualification.
I can see the packaging now...new consumer friendly positioning:
Level 1: : "My First Deer Stalking Qualification- for ages 6+" .
Level 2: "minimal assessment, fast track"
Level 3: Learn the game.

My inner cynic is itching.
At least I hope it's the cynic.
 
A gralloch is a gralloch though. If you can do it and explain what you're looking for then I guess you can do it 3 times?
I see a lot of variance between beasts in the gralloch, so whilst talking the AW through the theory is one thing, three grallochs is likely to lead to more questions/scenarios... and I say that's no bad thing.
 
Great Glory and trumpets, I have finally caught a break, I was about to register, do the three stalks, in addition, to the 5 or 6 I did the first time around with an AW and failed to submit the full portfolio in time and was asked to re-register.

I’ll wait, register in April do one now, one or three, I’ll be just a competent stalker after as I was before.

I view the qualification more as confirmation that someone has invested the time, energy (and sometimes considerable expense) to learn and demonstrate a certain level of skill, knowledge and by association experience. It doesn’t make us superhuman. One of the best stalkers I know didn’t have a qualification of any sort to his name but what he didn’t know about red deer, the natural world he inhabited, and stalking wasn’t worth knowing. (Although perhaps his larder practices would be frowned on today!)
 
I can see the packaging now...new consumer friendly positioning:
Level 1: : "My First Deer Stalking Qualification- for ages 6+" .
Level 2: "minimal assessment, fast track"
Level 3: Learn the game.

My inner cynic is itching.
At least I hope it's the cynic.

Level 2: "minimal assessment, fast track" - aka, those who cant do it. Who needs consistency, just be lucky :stir:
 
I am not convinced that has necessarily been compromised by the latest changes whereby the AW can point out to the Candidate an unobserved deer. In fact having now had some time to read the detail and consider the change, I think it is on balance a good thing.

I say that based on the fact that witnessed stalks can frequently result in outings with no deer shot. This is not because the deer are not there, or because the Candidate isn't competent, but because the Candidate is often stalking on unfamiliar ground, pursuing unfamiliar deer - all whilst being observed by an unfamiliar AW! That's a pretty stressful situation.

The Candidate may never visit that same ground again, or stalk the same species again, so why make spotting the deer on that ground a condition of successfully completing an ICR? Remember that DSC2 is "a practical based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically". Does someone pointing out a deer to you significantly compromise that? I am not convinced it does.

Consider that, as the AW, I have stalked that same ground for many years. I know the deer's habits, as a result of which I am probably more attuned to where deer might be found. Note that I say "more attuned", and not "infallible". In guiding I always tell clients to tell me if they spot a deer, and not just assume that I have. Being an AW or guide does not make me a stalking ninja. I am just someone who has been lucky enough to stalk the same ground for a good few years and built up some experience of the resident deer's habits.

I can recall several situations in the past on witnessed stalks where I have seen deer that the Candidate has not. In my mind I was desperately willing the Candidate to see them. In one case the Candidate most frequently stalked red and fallow but we happened to be on ground with a lot of muntjac. They had never even seen a muntjac before, and were unlikely to see one again. So why should spotting a muntjac suddenly be a measure of their competence? Much easier to just say "there's a muntjac over there" and then let them get on with what's important - the stalk itself.

Not spotting a deer is not a "fail" - if that was the case, and we are honest with ourselves, we would all be failures. The difference is that if you do it too frequently you will just be a hungry hunter for longer!
Completely agree with you. I have had 3 or 4 no deer stalks on DSC2, (personally I think caused by a shortage of deer), it's an expensive qualification if you aren't careful.
 
Level 2: "minimal assessment, fast track" - aka, those who cant do it. Who needs consistency, just be lucky :stir:
Correct. Its a joke in my opinion. I have always maintained that killing three fallow on a park, or killing three Muntjac in a wood is nothing. You cannot equate that with extraction of a larger beast, lets say a Red stag 3 miles out on a scottish hillside, tell me its the same as extracting a Muntjac or CWD or for that matter a park deer. No way.
Frankly after being an AW for a few years now, and having around 4 to 6 candidates a year, possibly more, I dont keep a tally, I feel like throwing it in.
 
Correct. Its a joke in my opinion. I have always maintained that killing three fallow on a park, or killing three Muntjac in a wood is nothing. You cannot equate that with extraction of a larger beast, lets say a Red stag 3 miles out on a scottish hillside, tell me its the same as extracting a Muntjac or CWD or for that matter a park deer. No way.
Frankly after being an AW for a few years now, and having around 4 to 6 candidates a year, possibly more, I dont keep a tally, I feel like throwing it in.


I agree it is not the same...but what competence should it be trying to assess? It is not a highland stalking qualification. Maybe there should be another level to include for that? Surely it is more about demonstrating knowledge of maintaining carcass hygiene from shot site to larder than physically overcoming the terrain in a Scottish hillside or a Cotswold wooded valley? I just don't shoot Fallow deer in a few places in soft Gloucestershire because I could not get them out even though it is only a few hundred yards to the vehicle.

For those of us who are woodland stalkers, shooting and extracting a woodland Fallow, Roe or Muntjac is more closely related to our stalking and therefore a more appropriate test of our competence than dragging a Red Stag 3 miles across a Scottish hillside...which of course requires a lot more physical fitness. It is however certainly something I am never going to be able do given my age and financial circumstance so why test me on it? But it might be useful to be able to show my competence at the lesser activity which better reflects what I am going to be doing.

It would be a shame for you to throw it in when generally the changes appear to have addressed the most complained about (on SD) shortcomings of the DSC1. And if more people are able to demonstrate their competence and be assessed as a stalker and carcass handler/processor, then level 2 seems to be improved in that respect.

Maybe there is even a case for splitting the qualifications further?

I have never understood why it was not more like the driving or flying licence tests. That is, different competence tests for different licences, Motor Cycle, Car, HGV, PSV, Daytime, Nightime instrument only and etc....

I also wouldn't see it as a threat to have to pass a safety test before you get an SGC or FAC. A basic firearms handling and safety course as a starter seems a no brainer. I certainly have looked down too many barrels when out beating.

Having shown you can hand a gun safely, one could then open it up to....

If you want to shoot animals you demonstrate your knowledge of shot placement and skill to enable a clean kill.
If you want to shoot at night you demonstrate your competence to do that.
If you want to put animals into the food chain you demonstrate your ability to handle the carcass hygienically.
If you want to shoot and recover Red Stags 3 miles across a Scottish hillside you demonstrate your ability to do that.

Pick and choose to show competence in the areas you wish to pursue?

Alan
 
From my perspective as a recreational stalker:

For the current thinking in Scotland, and the history behind it, see The management of wild deer in Scotland: Deer Working Group report - gov.scot published on 5 Feb. 2020.

The Deer Working Group was established by the Scottish
Government in 2017, as a result of the Government’s
concern at the continuing issues over the standards of deer
management in Scotland and the levels of damage to public
interests caused by wild deer.
The Group was appointed as an independent working group to
review the existing statutory and non-statutory arrangements
for the management of wild deer in Scotland, taking account
of the position with each of the four species of wild deer in
Scotland and the varying circumstances across Scotland.
This Report is the result of the Group’s review and contains a
wide range of recommendations to fulfil the Group’s remit to
make “recommendations for changes to ensure effective deer
management that safeguards public interests and promotes
the sustainable management of wild deer”.



For example, study paras. 76 and 81.

76 The provisions in s.17A are based on the proposals that the DCS started to develop over 15 years ago and which were predicated on a number of interlocking proposals that the Group considers out of date. As reflected by paragraphs (b) and (c) of sub-section 1, the register envisaged by DCS would be restricted to those who had achieved DSC2 and counted as ‘fit and competent’, with everyone else needing to be supervised by a DSC2 holder or have an equivalent foreign qualification.

81 While a DSC1 is not a qualification that currently needs to be renewed, re-registration could be required after a period (for example, 10 years) to remove those from the register who no longer shoot deer in Scotland (e.g. having died, retired, moved away, etc.). As DSC2 certificates require to be renewed every five years, a registration at that advanced level would end with the renewal date of the certificate and require to be renewed if the holder wanted. As a DSC2 holder has to have passed DSC1, they could stay on the register at that basic level.


I was certainly not aware that a DSC2 expires after five years ? Is this correct or have I misunderstood ? Would there be a fee to apply to be put on this register ?

You can download all 374 pages of the official report from here:


I am interested to learn more about the forthcoming changes to DSC2, as an interested party, who has not yet felt a pressing need to take it. I am quietly confident in my gralloching skills, having shot several deer before my DSC1, more afterwards (under the mentoring of my guides, who were AWs), and also been invited to help in the larder during a park cull, when I gralloched eight more deer one day, then the following week returned to be trained to skin and butcher them for sale at the estate's market stall.

If, on my next guided stalk, I can have the chance to get my DSC2 in one go, that is appealing. I am also of the opinion that the DSC1 multiple-choice theory test for Large Game Handling / Trained Hunter was all very well, but it was very clear on my DSC1 course with 20 participants, that I was one of only three who had any practical experience, the others never having shot a deer before, never mind seen inside one. Most were genuinely interested in learning. A couple less so, they both failed despite being offered the opportunity to resit the papers they failed, with additional personal coaching. And little time was spent on the game handling lecture, despite it being a full three day course. Were most of the candidates now qualified to put deer into the food chain safely ? I have my own opinion on that. I was also astounded at how many failed the simulated stalk and shooting test at first attempt.

Will DSC1 be revised to remove that qualification, albeit teach the theory, and move it over to DSC2 to prove practical experience ? Mightn't be a bad thing.

When I book my next guided stalk part of my decision will be based on whether the guide is an AW under the new scheme. If not, I probably won't book with them. So please Malcolm, don't resign just yet.

Once I have it, of course that decision could be different. Though I would still hope that my guides were qualified AWs, from whom I could continue to learn. Even little things, like how to age a deer by its teeth wear, how to select the best candidates as part of a cull plan, how to spot deer better, etc. etc. I think that being an AW must add credibility when choosing a new guide

I have spent a lot of money over the years paying for my guided stalking, albeit only a few times each year, but over the years that has added up to a tidy amount, as well as things like travel with my GF to attend a free three day Best Practice event put on by SNH, held in the grounds of Balmoral Castle, courtesy of the Queen. That is a special place. Learning all sorts of things in hands on practical classes, such as e.g. habitat impact assessment, terminal ballistic effects, bullet and calibre choices, butchery (we each got half a deer to practice on, in teams of two), to gourmet cookery, to the effects of how meat is hung in the larder for varying periods, many other things. As well as getting to meet with a great bunch of like minded people. And their dogs. My GF has also helped out on another deer park, putting the animals through the crush and giving them their inoculations etc. Whilst she doesn't shoot, she is at least as keen as me on learning as much as we can on every aspect of the subject.
 
I havn't read all six pages, but I am against simply moving the trained hunter qualification from DSC L1 to DSC L2. This whole system needs a proper think through and a reduction in the number of hoops.

What does DSC L1 mean now, is it simply the equivalent of an online theory test, L2 is the practical driving test? In my view, every stalker from day one should be capable of bringing meat into the food chain and selling carcasses. If they don't get this validated at L1, what's the point of L1?
 
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