Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Not a problem
Copper bullets - the limitations
- Thread starter NigelM
- Start date
Just a quick look, sitting behind my keyboard, at the projectiles available in the UK, at retail, for a 270, as reloading components.
Complete cartridge prices comparisons, well I wouldn't have a clue.
Lapua Naturalis, (copper) 7mm 155 gn £60 per 50
Barnes TTSX (copper) 7mm 150 gn £54 per 50
Peregrine VLR4 (copper, lathe turned in SA) .277", 132g £48 per 50.
Fox Classic hunter (brass, lathe turned in Slovenia) .277" 130 gn £45 per 50.
Nosler Ballistic tip (lead) 7mm 150 gn £33 per 50.
So, lets average the copper/brass prices as being £51.75 per 50.
Thus therefore, I reckon shooting copper or brass, on average, costs 38p more per bang than a decent lead bullet. That's hardly the end of the world as we know it, is it, really ?
And you can "eat up to the hole". Whereas guidelines now are that, for lead, all meat should be discarded from a 10 cm radius surrounding the wound channel. Maybe all the AGHEs are doing that scrupulously. Or not. Would that discarded meat be worth 38p on average, to them, I would not know. Of course, if you shoot them all in the noggin, as some AGHEs would like you to, that's moot.
AFAIK FCS are shooting about 30% of all Scottish deer. Without using lead. Successfully. That's a lot.
So, it's a no-brainer to me as to what bullets to choose, going forwards. (no, not the leaden ones).
Isn't it interesting that the "boutique" people cutting them out on lathes can undercut the big companies. All that marketing and numerous tiers of distribution must be paid for somehow I suppose.
Interesting Lapua Naturalis piccies. For the empirical here, that's what they do from 1581 fps to 2979 fps. They look pretty good at 2595 fps upwards.
Ooh, and no groovy "Power Grooves" required. But surely that's impossible, doesn't everybody know that a copper bullet needs grooves on it ?
Complete cartridge prices comparisons, well I wouldn't have a clue.
Lapua Naturalis, (copper) 7mm 155 gn £60 per 50
Barnes TTSX (copper) 7mm 150 gn £54 per 50
Peregrine VLR4 (copper, lathe turned in SA) .277", 132g £48 per 50.
Fox Classic hunter (brass, lathe turned in Slovenia) .277" 130 gn £45 per 50.
Nosler Ballistic tip (lead) 7mm 150 gn £33 per 50.
So, lets average the copper/brass prices as being £51.75 per 50.
Thus therefore, I reckon shooting copper or brass, on average, costs 38p more per bang than a decent lead bullet. That's hardly the end of the world as we know it, is it, really ?
And you can "eat up to the hole". Whereas guidelines now are that, for lead, all meat should be discarded from a 10 cm radius surrounding the wound channel. Maybe all the AGHEs are doing that scrupulously. Or not. Would that discarded meat be worth 38p on average, to them, I would not know. Of course, if you shoot them all in the noggin, as some AGHEs would like you to, that's moot.
AFAIK FCS are shooting about 30% of all Scottish deer. Without using lead. Successfully. That's a lot.
So, it's a no-brainer to me as to what bullets to choose, going forwards. (no, not the leaden ones).
Isn't it interesting that the "boutique" people cutting them out on lathes can undercut the big companies. All that marketing and numerous tiers of distribution must be paid for somehow I suppose.
Interesting Lapua Naturalis piccies. For the empirical here, that's what they do from 1581 fps to 2979 fps. They look pretty good at 2595 fps upwards.
Ooh, and no groovy "Power Grooves" required. But surely that's impossible, doesn't everybody know that a copper bullet needs grooves on it ?
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Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Before I stopped reloading I was paying £1.50 a pop to load Barnes TTSX for my 270 and I was shooting a lot more then than I am now.
back then the puttering at all that cost compared to a game king load was endless
to me price is irrelevant as long as the bullet does the job effectively.
back then the puttering at all that cost compared to a game king load was endless
to me price is irrelevant as long as the bullet does the job effectively.
What Norfolk Deer Search has done over the past few posts is corroborate that the TTSX bullets work well down to 2400 fps TV. His 130gr TTSX launched at 2900 fps is doing a smidge under 2400 fps at his 250 yard maximum range. This should be a comfort to all those who are worrying about how a 130gr TTSX will work in their 308Win at 3000 fps as it will be very similar. So at normal stalking ranges as long as you select the right bullet weight and achieve the right MV there's nothing to worry about copper.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Most of that is at night with thermal and lamp. Ranges are rarely extended as a result. All well within the performance envelope of standard non-lead bullets. Daytime culling on modern monster-sized clear-fells presents more of an issue.
Ref price, I think few stalkers can object on that ground. Target shooters are more likely to get upset on that score.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Well see what happens at extended ranges come harvest, I’ve got some stonking great fields here close to home.
when I’ve go the reloading bench sorted, I’ll dig my old Barnes load out and whack it out to 500/600m and see what happens.
I’m sure I can find an RTA that will offer a suitable target.
that will iron all this non toxic Horlicks out
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Lot of talk on this thread about non lead bullets not expanding well at distances over 250m, or not having a good ballistic coefficient to shoot longer ranges.
1) It’s long ago when nobody would even entertain shooting a deer much beyond 200m. Regardless of bullet type, impact energy is dropping, and effect of wind begins to really have an impact. And if it goes wrong, then longer range just adds complications. Since when have stalkers got so lazy that they can’t get into 200m or less. Thats the whole point of stalking
2) when target shooting where ranges are known does it really matter if you to dial at extra five clicks when shooting at that distant target?
1) It’s long ago when nobody would even entertain shooting a deer much beyond 200m. Regardless of bullet type, impact energy is dropping, and effect of wind begins to really have an impact. And if it goes wrong, then longer range just adds complications. Since when have stalkers got so lazy that they can’t get into 200m or less. Thats the whole point of stalking
2) when target shooting where ranges are known does it really matter if you to dial at extra five clicks when shooting at that distant target?
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
It’s all excuses, as far as I’m concerned, one after another after another
my old ttsx load works on red deer beyond 300m just because a ballistic calculator says it will loose it’s legs beyond 240m doesn’t mean it’s not going to work.
What people need to do is load some up and go shoot deer instead of wondering what it can or can not do.
the only way is to get out there and crack on.
Lest we forget, when Barnes, all those years ago, started off making the first copper bullet (I think), I don't suppose that they had any premonition about the later lead controversy. They simply wanted to make a better hunting bullet. Which I think that they did.
I met an early adopter during a fallow cull. You name it, he had shot it, all over the world, in every chambering. Using mostly a Blaser with bunch of different barrels and bolt heads. The photos of his trophy room were amazing. I asked him what he used nowadays (this being about 15 years ago), and he said, straight away, 308, 130 gn Barnes TSX. Does everything for anything except dangerous game. His passion was for Tahr in NZ, by the way, which I gather can be challenging.
I met an early adopter during a fallow cull. You name it, he had shot it, all over the world, in every chambering. Using mostly a Blaser with bunch of different barrels and bolt heads. The photos of his trophy room were amazing. I asked him what he used nowadays (this being about 15 years ago), and he said, straight away, 308, 130 gn Barnes TSX. Does everything for anything except dangerous game. His passion was for Tahr in NZ, by the way, which I gather can be challenging.
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CarlW
Well-Known Member
I do think that would be quite an interesting exercise (although surely those data already exist?) I have zero experience of copper-only bullets beyond 100 metres or so (where I use them on DG). Would genuinely love to see what they do on actual (intact) carcasses at 300-400m.Well see what happens at extended ranges come harvest, I’ve got some stonking great fields here close to home.
when I’ve go the reloading bench sorted, I’ll dig my old Barnes load out and whack it out to 500/600m and see what happens.
I’m sure I can find an RTA that will offer a suitable target.
that will iron all this non toxic Horlicks out
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I’ll get it sorted, I’ve got a big freezer I’ll start looking for suitable candidates
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I think much of the testing has been done already. The Kiwi's shoot 300m to 600m day in day out, have tested the monolithincs including Barnes extensively and will not touch the them with a barge pole because the terminals are so poor compared with the lead bullets they are already using. Not entirely sure they will perform differently in the UK than they will in NZ, unless of course we don't believe those Antipodean cowboys and we need to do it all for ourselves.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I don’t really care what they do in New Zealand to be honest!
I know what I can do and what works in my rifle and at what speed.
there is a massive amount of too much thinking and not enough deer killing going on
fox hunters have accounted for 14 animals from my rifle in the last 2 weekends so we’re plodding along quite nicely
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
Forestry Commission England don't night shoot. They also don't use lead.
I don't think that there any plans yet to ban lead from target shooting.
But even so, the likes of Fox, and Peregrine, do target bullets, solid, for much less. E.g. Edinburgh Rifles sell Fox 308 target bullets for 49p each. Obviously they are much easier to turn out.
The going rate for a lead Sierra MatchKing seems to be about 47p each. These are in quantities of 50 to 100. A target shooter might buy them by the 1000 but I expect the comparison to hold up.
Many that I know are simply using either the 308 ggg stuff from the NRA at 90p a shot, or the HPS Targetmaster at £1.10. Both loaded with 155 gn Sierra MatchKing. That is complete cartridges. They can't justify reloading their own at that sort of price. And there is a market for your once-fired brass to further reduce your costs.
Now, take a 90p target round, pull the 155 gr SMK out and seat instead an 86p Fox 150 gr hunting bullet and you have £1.76 cartridge. But Edinburgh Rifles will sell you a complete cartridge for £2.20 each, by the 20. I daresay rather less if you order more than that.
So, what to make of that ? I don't know, but even if you shoot targets and reload using good target bullets for that extra edge over factory, there is already a choice. Or for hunters wanting to practice, use the brass target bullets at half the price, then do your final zeroing with the hunting ones. That is if you detect any significant difference in POI.
Besides, AFAIK copper bullets are not allowed on most ranges that abide by the rules for military ranges. Which includes Bisley. I wouldn't want to be a butt marker with copper or brass bullets potentially bouncing off the backstop just behind me.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Yes. The Barnes LRX, in particular, gets a very poor press from Mr Knees and his crew.
Will you let me know how you get on with your own experiences with other brands, Nigel? I am likely to be a late-adopter, but I am keen not to miss anything special that hits our shores.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Sharpie was talking about FLS.
That wasn't "none toxic". The French chap was using RWS Evolution. Which is a traditional lead bullet with a bonded core. Sorry make that "special Power Bonding of the lead core"
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
I was answering your point about ranges rarely extended due to most of FLS deer being shot at night.
FC England don't use Lead bullets and they haven't got any night licenses. They cull quite a lot of deer too.
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