FAQ: Do I have an Open or Closed Certificate?

[Rob-E]

It’s perfectly reasonable to ask for and be given a receipt/invoice. I did when I applied, and got one.
Most outfitters will be used to being asked this I imagine as some people can on,y stalk via the paid route and therefore proof is needed to obtain and FAC.

 

[mealiejimmy]

If you've paid for a stalk, you are entitled to a receipt which describes what you paid for.
It's also worth getting the contact details for the person who took you on the stalk since the Police may want to contact him/her to check that:
a. You did actually go on a stalk with him/her
b. His/her impression of you with regard to safety and your temperament.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[DorsetBlue]

I’ve just been issued with a varied certificate which has only the four statutory conditions. Nothing at all about what or where I can shoot. Is that normal now? I’m presuming it means I can do what I like with the guns (within the law). My old certificate was open but had the usual blurb...target practice and zeroing...AOLQ..etc. This one...nada.

I have just had the same. I put a variation in for some changes to slots and also to add some new syndicate permissions to the firearms on my FAC. It got referred to one of the local FEOs, who I have spoken to before, who said that he would only allow my Rimfires to be added as being used on the land but not centrefire until I had some experience (FAC held for under a year). I am a member of a shooting club that hopefully will be running a DSC1 course shortly and I was going to do some escorted stalks before I did anything anyway (yes I know this gets some people steamed, so please can we keep responses to the question that is about to follow).
When my updated FAC arrived, it has the exact following text:

The firearms and ammunition except the .44 Muzzle Loading Revolver serial number XXX-XXXXX shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, or deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

Now I know this is a Closed Ticket....which is fine and this limits me to the permissions that I have. But (other than what is authorised for those permissions), this does not seem to limit me to any of my slots except for my Ruger Old Army?

 

[25 Sharps]

I have just had the same. I put a variation in for some changes to slots and also to add some new syndicate permissions to the firearms on my FAC. It got referred to one of the local FEOs, who I have spoken to before, who said that he would only allow my Rimfires to be added as being used on the land but not centrefire until I had some experience (FAC held for under a year). I am a member of a shooting club that hopefully will be running a DSC1 course shortly and I was going to do some escorted stalks before I did anything anyway (yes I know this gets some people steamed, so please can we keep responses to the question that is about to follow).
When my updated FAC arrived, it has the exact following text:

The firearms and ammunition except the .44 Muzzle Loading Revolver serial number XXX-XXXXX shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, or deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

Now I know this is a Closed Ticket....which is fine and this limits me to the permissions that I have. But (other than what is authorised for those permissions), this does not seem to limit me to any of my slots except for my Ruger Old Army?

Not sure I understand your question but what it is saying is that all of your firearms can be used over land that has been cleared for that calibre (not just your stated permissions, but you must have permission) to shoot quarry for which that calibre is legal or for zeroing and practice. I would assume you have a separate target condition that covers the ruger as well

 

[25 Sharps]

I have just had the same. I put a variation in for some changes to slots and also to add some new syndicate permissions to the firearms on my FAC. It got referred to one of the local FEOs, who I have spoken to before, who said that he would only allow my Rimfires to be added as being used on the land but not centrefire until I had some experience (FAC held for under a year). I am a member of a shooting club that hopefully will be running a DSC1 course shortly and I was going to do some escorted stalks before I did anything anyway (yes I know this gets some people steamed, so please can we keep responses to the question that is about to follow).
When my updated FAC arrived, it has the exact following text:

The firearms and ammunition except the .44 Muzzle Loading Revolver serial number XXX-XXXXX shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, or deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

Now I know this is a Closed Ticket....which is fine and this limits me to the permissions that I have. But (other than what is authorised for those permissions), this does not seem to limit me to any of my slots except for my Ruger Old Army?

Not sure I understand your question but what it is saying is that all of your firearms can be used over land that has been cleared for that calibre (not just your stated permissions, but you must have permission) to shoot quarry for which that calibre is legal or for zeroing and practice. I would assume you have a separate target condition that covers the ruger as well.

So if you have a deer legal calibre you can use it on cleared land for deer.

 

[DorsetBlue]

Not sure I understand your question but what it is saying is that all of your firearms can be used over land that has been cleared for that calibre (not just your stated permissions, but you must have permission) to shoot quarry for which that calibre is legal or for zeroing and practice. I would assume you have a separate target condition that covers the ruger as well.

So if you have a deer legal calibre you can use it on cleared land for deer.

Hi,

Yes, I already had .308 and .303 for Target use (plus ML Revolver and Rifle, S1 Shotgun and 22LR). I now have .223 and .17HMR as well.

 

[25 Sharps]

Hi,

Yes, I already had .308 and .303 for Target use (plus ML Revolver and Rifle, S1 Shotgun and 22LR). I now have .223 and .17HMR as well.

Right, so you are free to use any of them bar the revolver on cleared land for any suitable (legal) quarry where you have permission. Either they’ve got it wrong or the licences has manager disagreed with the feo’s take on it.

You’ve lucked out it seems!

 

[DorsetBlue]

Right, so you are free to use any of them on cleared land for any suitable (legal) quarry where you have permission. Either they’ve got it wrong or the licences has manager disagreed with the feo’s take on it.

Okay, that was what I thought. Thanks for the help.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Interesting stuff! Oddly enough the "closed" fac (only on land passed by the police as suitable for x calibre rifle) used to be the norm in NI which involved maps, tours with FEOs and endless toing and froing. Then and without any fanfare the norm suddenly was switched to "open" i.e. "Land considered suitable by the fac holder". The story at that time was that if there was a "firearms-related accident/incident" on said land then the police had liability because they had "deemed" it suitable - hence the sudden emergence of open facs! We were all delighted of course - so why not elsewhere in the UK then???

 

[Pedro]

There's two schools of thought. One being that they need to restrict the activities of certificate holders whilst they are inexperienced (which translates into the certificate holders prior to first renewal, generally). The other being that they need to ensure if something disastrous goes wrong, then none of the blame falls on the police, but the shooter, and the way to do that is to put all the onus to ensure safety onto the shooter.

Of course both methods are flawed and when the poo hits the fan, it's always going to be mainly the shooter's fault and there's always going to be an investigation to see if the police did everything correctly, or if any fault lies with the grant/renewal procedures.

 

[wildfowler86]

Just had my FAC returned with an open ticket and boar listed with deer and aolq so pretty pleased about that

 

[DorsetBlue]

Just had my FAC returned with an open ticket and boar listed with deer and aolq so pretty pleased about that

Variations and applications suspended here in Dorset (Devon and Cornwall). They are only processing if you can prove that it is for essential shooting.

 

[wildfowler86]

Variations and applications suspended here in Dorset (Devon and Cornwall). They are only processing if you can prove that it is for essential shooting.

I must add this was applied for back in July! Lol

 

[DorsetBlue]

I must add this was applied for back in July! Lol

Ouch lol.

 

[Webb1401]

Hello,
So if you have a certificate that is closed to certain land for say .243 and you get permission from an other land owner for ie fox, deer. Do you have to re apply or just inform the flo, with evidence of permission, it seems alot of people have hassle with flo's. Any body used B.A.S.C to fight there limitations.

Hi. If you get new land and your ticket is closed then you would have to speak with your licensing officer to ensure the new land was clear for your caliber. You shouldn’t need to tell them every time you acquire new land/permission. If you have an open ticket then it doesn’t matter whether the new land has previously been cleared for any particular caliber as you should be able to make that informed decision based on the fact you have the experience and have been granted with an open ticket. In Cambridge you generally have to have had an FAC for 5 yrs before they will make your centre fire open but each county is different and I’ve heard of others being given an open ticket from the start.

 

[Leglas]

Is it easier in Scotland? I know I'm attempting to elicit an oversimplification here. I applied, got an interview with the head guy and he was very nice. He said if I got my DSC1 he'd give me a license, and he did. No restrictions, rf or cf. Is that normal North of the border?

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

hi my license states for my .22 r/f and my 22.250 they shall be used on any land which the license holder has permission to shoot on with this class of firearm. si i presume its what you are classing as open,

That’s open

 

[csl]

That’s open

It's also nearly 9 years later!

 

[Birkie94]

As this comes up quite a bit here is the difference between a 'closed' ('more restrictive') certificate and an 'open' (or 'less restrictive') certificate.

Note that it is dependent on the conditions PER rifle. It is possible to have a certificate that is open for one rifle and closed for another.


1) Closed Certificate

The condition contains the text "land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police" or similar. The certificate holder needs to check with the police force applicable to the ground to see if the ground is cleared and if not arrange to have the ground cleared for the calibre in question.

An example 'closed' condition:

View attachment 5653


2) 'Open' or 'Less Restrictive' Certificate

The onus is solely upon the certificate holder to check that the ground is suitable for the calibre/scenario. They do not need to check with the police force that the ground is cleared.

An example 'open' condition:

View attachment 5652

Very informative. Thanks for the info!

 

[Foxyboy43]

Very informative. Thanks for the info!

This prompts a question or two from me having noted from this thread that as is the case in NI, unidentified (no name and no serial number) moderators are mentioned and linked to respective firearms but I do not understand the point of this. For example if I had a 308 and a 30:06 but my fac specified a moderator only for the 308 does that really mean I am not permitted to use it on the 30:06 or indeed any other rifle not so specified? If so, as certainly appears to be the case, what is the thinking behind this, to me, pointless restriction?