Game dealer not accepting lead shot carcasses

[25 Sharps]

Plenty of alternatives, and more all the time. Any copper bullet, launched from any of the standard calibres at any sensible velocity will kill a fox. Many might actually work better - the .17 Hornet copper bullets at 4600 fps will be turning foxes into bloody sock puppets at silly ranges. Sure, there is going to be a problem for .22lr for a bit, but given the sheer size of that market, the technology is going to catch up fast. And let's face it - it doesn't really take much to kill a rabbit. You can do it with a catapult and ball bearings, so anything chucking out lumps of copper at anywhere near 1000 fps will be perfectly effective.

This isn't a fight that can or will be won. It probably isn't one that's even worth fighting, since given the choice between food possibly contaminated with pretty grim toxin and food not so contaminated, it's actually pretty perverse to fight for the right to eat and/or make others eat the toxin.

The world changes. Always has, always will. You either move with it, or get left behind muttering bitterly into your pint.

There aren’t, you’re talking rubbish, there are a few and that’s it.

What’s the wind drift on the .17 hornet bullets at 200 yards?

Where are you getting 4600 fps by the way?? 19% increase over factory ammo . . . . . one of 2 answers dangerously overpressure load or your talking rubbish.

Look at the number of options of lead .224 bullets verses lead.

My guess is you don’t shoot a lot of rabbits, hares or foxes. So your opinion on what is suitable or not doesn't carry a lot of weight

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Yeah, but you’ve only shot 5!!

Chuck a few 0’s on the end of that 5 and you’ll be getting somewhere near

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Have just run the figures on my moderate .223 50gr v max load vs 36 gr Varmint grenade.

4.5” wind drift against 7.3”, the former has 50% more energy too, that’s with the barnes doing an additional 650 FPS. This all leads to lead being more efficient in terms of picking up that nervous fox someone else has missed that you just can’t get in close and if you’re out in strong winds and balls your wind call up a bit.

I tried 30 gr Varmint grenades in the hornet for a hundred rounds or so, they were rubbish compared to the 35 or 40 gr v-max. Out of the same cartridge.

What are all the .204 boys going to shoot ?

39 gr SBK has a BC of .255, 26 gr Varmint is .131!

Cross Hairs on target and bang!

The people who make these decisions don’t care about us and that’s fact!

the small % of hunters in the U.K. is irrelevant in the world of voting, the government won’t give 2 hoots about the million (rough figure don’t actually know the exact) odd lawful gun owners and their shooting.

self preservation is the key!

keep ticking those boxes and keep on going for as long as we can.

like it or lump it.

 

[Mungo]

There aren’t, you’re talking rubbish, there are a few and that’s it.

What’s the wind drift on the .17 hornet bullets at 200 yards?

Where are you getting 4600 fps by the way?? 19% increase over factory ammo . . . . . one of 2 answers dangerously overpressure load or your talking rubbish.

Look at the number of options of lead .224 bullets verses lead.

My guess is you don’t shoot a lot of rabbits, hares or foxes. So your opinion on what is suitable or not doesn't carry a lot of weight

Oh well.

You’ll just have to give up then when lead is fully banned. Clearly it’s completely impossible to shoot foxes and rabbits with anything but lead.

Look - I don’t disagree that in some contexts, as of now, non lead is less effective. But it does still work, and in the not too distant future it will be your only option. So you can cry about that, or you can set about figuring out how to make it work as effectively as your current set up.

Exactly as the fridge manufacturers did when CFCs were phased out. Or the engine manufacturers when lead in fuel phased out. Etc etc.

Or go sit in the corner and grumble...

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I know blokes who spent £20-£30 a week in fuel just shooting foxes and think nothing of it, so an extra few quid in bullets is neither here nor there is it.

 

[Selous]

Hi, I don’t think I ever took any pictures of that. Lead fragments in game meat are something I’ve been so used to seeing all my life. I’m surprised that anyone could miss seeing it but maybe some people don’t look that closely etc.
As soon as I realised that there were very good lead free bullets that I could be hand loading I decided to use them instead.
The fact of the matter is that the lead is more often than not very easy to spot with your bare eyes. Failing that, you could just scan it with a metal detector.
kindest regards, Olaf

I noticed the same when I shot lead core bullets, what will be interesting is if the non lead sintered metal powder (tin I think) bullets like the Geco Zero will also produce a similar effect. I would expect they will

 

[25 Sharps]

Oh well.

You’ll just have to give up then when lead is fully banned. Clearly it’s completely impossible to shoot foxes and rabbits with anything but lead.

Look - I don’t disagree that in some contexts, as of now, non lead is less effective. But it does still work, and in the not too distant future it will be your only option. So you can cry about that, or you can set about figuring out how to make it work as effectively as your current set up.

Exactly as the fridge manufacturers did when CFCs were phased out. Or the engine manufacturers when lead in fuel phased out. Etc etc.

Or go sit in the corner and grumble...

My current set up is

around 3-4000 rifle bullets sat in cupboard that will become useless and valueless

10-12000 lead and jacketed .357 bullets that will become useless and valueless (bar the scrap for the cast ones)

About 3000 loaded round in various calibres that will become the same.

just shy of 10kg of powder that I will likely have to change as it will be too slow for lighter lead free bullets

25-45 that will become redundant as it won't drive a lead free fast enough to be humane

.22 WMR semi that i will have to sell as it won't cycle light lead free bullets, if i can get anything for it

.357 LBR that will become redundant and valueless as lead free bullets are not a cost effective or easily accessible option

.357 underlever the same

0.22 hornet that will lose its value and become redundant as it won't drive lead free fast enough or stabilise longer lead bullets.

0.22 LR that won't be able to shoot subsonic and may not work with the one lead free option my RFD has sat on the shelf, will probably become redundant.

0.22 LBP again pretty much redundant and valueless without lead

1:14 0.223AI that will need to be rebarreled to shoot lead free

Oh, all my target rifles that will no longer be able to be shot at Bisley as you can't use monometal there..........

but when they do change that its redoing all my load development for 9 guns, fantastic!!!!

So yes, I am hacked off and bitter that our org's have thrown the rest of the sport under the bus so that a few stalkers can continue to send meat to the EU rather than developing the domestic market, or at the very least dealing with the alleged food safety issue rather than bringing the alleged environmental impact into it - effectively putting the last nail in the coffin for anyone using lead for quarry entering the food chain or even target use.


I've spent 2 nights this week shooting rabbits from a tower with a 0.223 that are hammering a winter barley crop, shots ranging from 40-200+ yards as that particular location it is the most effective and safest way of controlling numbers coming on to the crop from the solar farm next door. This just wont work with non copper bullets if there is any wind at all. I do a hare cull on one farm on top of a hill, head shots 100-200 yards off sticks again with 0.223, always done November and December and its always 10-20 mph plus wind there at that time of year, won't work with copper.

But hey, copper bullets work ok for deer so I guess its not a problem really and I need to just suck it up. Thanks for the support brother.

 

[Cranborne]

We can debate this until we're blue in the face, but I don't think there's much chance of any potential ban being avoided while Carrie the Eco Warrior is in No.10....it's just another step towards ending live quarry shooting (a lot easier to do it incrementally than an all out ban).

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

My current set up is

around 3-4000 rifle bullets sat in cupboard that will become useless and valueless

10-12000 lead and jacketed .357 bullets that will become useless and valueless (bar the scrap for the cast ones)

About 3000 loaded round in various calibres that will become the same.

just shy of 10kg of powder that I will likely have to change as it will be too slow for lighter lead free bullets

25-45 that will become redundant as it won't drive a lead free fast enough to be humane

.22 WMR semi that i will have to sell as it won't cycle light lead free bullets, if i can get anything for it

.357 LBR that will become redundant and valueless as lead free bullets are not a cost effective or easily accessible option

.357 underlever the same

0.22 hornet that will lose its value and become redundant as it won't drive lead free fast enough or stabilise longer lead bullets.

0.22 LR that won't be able to shoot subsonic and may not work with the one lead free option my RFD has sat on the shelf, will probably become redundant.

0.22 LBP again pretty much redundant and valueless without lead

1:14 0.223AI that will need to be rebarreled to shoot lead free

Oh, all my target rifles that will no longer be able to be shot at Bisley as you can't use monometal there..........

but when they do change that its redoing all my load development for 9 guns, fantastic!!!!

So yes, I am hacked off and bitter that our org's have thrown the rest of the sport under the bus so that a few stalkers can continue to send meat to the EU rather than developing the domestic market, or at the very least dealing with the alleged food safety issue rather than bringing the alleged environmental impact into it - effectively putting the last nail in the coffin for anyone using lead for quarry entering the food chain or even target use.


I've spent 2 nights this week shooting rabbits from a tower with a 0.223 that are hammering a winter barley crop, shots ranging from 40-200+ yards as that particular location it is the most effective and safest way of controlling numbers coming on to the crop from the solar farm next door. This just wont work with non copper bullets if there is any wind at all. I do a hare cull on one farm on top of a hill, head shots 100-200 yards off sticks again with 0.223, always done November and December and its always 10-20 mph plus wind there at that time of year, won't work with copper.

But hey, copper bullets work ok for deer so I guess its not a problem really and I need to just suck it up. Thanks for the support brother.

No disrespect intended but why hold that much stock?

really there is no one else to blame but yourself for the financial outlay.

personally I hold 100- 200 of each calibre that’s it and roll them up as I need them.

 

[Mike L]

Surely Bisley will ok the use of monometal rounds IF/WHEN the ban comes in?

 

[long_range_rob]

Two thoughts,

1) Will the military and police be moving to non-toxic?

2) Does anyone know a good supplier on 100gn .25 calibre depleted uranium bullets?

 

[geoffw]

Lee's just passionate about the subject. Same as thee and me. I'm sure I've said plenty of horrid things on here too. You're all c'nts...sorry..bloody tourettes is back...

Anyway, I guess we all just need to try our best to play the ball; not the man.

Do I buy all the reasons/excuses for the change- no, and I've written to my MP accordingly.
Will there be some who lose out here- probably, and compensation claims may be in order.
Do I think this is the thin end of the wedge- maybe, maybe not.
Am I impressed by BASC et al- hell no, they'll not get another penny from me.
Will there be time and effort involved in working out new optimal loads/drop- yes, a little.
Do I think the govt is being influenced by BJ's todger- yes.
Am I shocked by the falconry guys' (on here) description of the speed of lead poisoning on raptors- yes.

Regardless, for me, the inevitability is that, right or wrong, lead ammo is likely at the end of its legal life, so once I've got through existing stalking ammo next (fallow) season, I intend to embrace the inevitable and move to alternatives.

 

[geoffw]

My current set up is

around 3-4000 rifle bullets sat in cupboard that will become useless and valueless

10-12000 lead and jacketed .357 bullets that will become useless and valueless (bar the scrap for the cast ones)

About 3000 loaded round in various calibres that will become the same.

just shy of 10kg of powder that I will likely have to change as it will be too slow for lighter lead free bullets

25-45 that will become redundant as it won't drive a lead free fast enough to be humane

.22 WMR semi that i will have to sell as it won't cycle light lead free bullets, if i can get anything for it

.357 LBR that will become redundant and valueless as lead free bullets are not a cost effective or easily accessible option

.357 underlever the same

0.22 hornet that will lose its value and become redundant as it won't drive lead free fast enough or stabilise longer lead bullets.

0.22 LR that won't be able to shoot subsonic and may not work with the one lead free option my RFD has sat on the shelf, will probably become redundant.

0.22 LBP again pretty much redundant and valueless without lead

1:14 0.223AI that will need to be rebarreled to shoot lead free

Oh, all my target rifles that will no longer be able to be shot at Bisley as you can't use monometal there..........

but when they do change that its redoing all my load development for 9 guns, fantastic!!!!

So yes, I am hacked off and bitter that our org's have thrown the rest of the sport under the bus so that a few stalkers can continue to send meat to the EU rather than developing the domestic market, or at the very least dealing with the alleged food safety issue rather than bringing the alleged environmental impact into it - effectively putting the last nail in the coffin for anyone using lead for quarry entering the food chain or even target use.


I've spent 2 nights this week shooting rabbits from a tower with a 0.223 that are hammering a winter barley crop, shots ranging from 40-200+ yards as that particular location it is the most effective and safest way of controlling numbers coming on to the crop from the solar farm next door. This just wont work with non copper bullets if there is any wind at all. I do a hare cull on one farm on top of a hill, head shots 100-200 yards off sticks again with 0.223, always done November and December and its always 10-20 mph plus wind there at that time of year, won't work with copper.

But hey, copper bullets work ok for deer so I guess its not a problem really and I need to just suck it up. Thanks for the support brother.

I hear you on much of that, but that is a lot of ammo/risk to hold- perhaps sell now while you can get money for it?

 

[geoffw]

Mate, I can't talk. The last time I went into Phillip Morris in Hereford (pre-lockdown3), the bloke told me that he always remembered me because I use bailer-twine instead of a belt. I can't believe that's now my own fookin' signature...

You are 100% all f*cking quality aren't you!?!


Blue or orange? Lest we ever show up together...

 

[Klenchblaize]

Get weaving as there's no problem in using funky coloured bailer twine from the wide selection on offer at Mole Valley Farmers Cooperative:

how to make a paracord belt - My French Twist
K

 

[Freeforester]

You are 100% all f*cking quality aren't you!?!


Blue or orange? Lest we ever show up together...

If in doubt, go sisal, all natural, a bit hairy, but works for me my friend....

 

[25 Sharps]

I hear you on much of that, but that is a lot of ammo/risk to hold- perhaps sell now while you can get money for it?

No disrespect intended but why hold that much stock?

really there is no one else to blame but yourself for the financial outlay.

personally I hold 100- 200 of each calibre that’s it and roll them up as I need them.

Well they announced a 5 year voluntary ban last year. I could and would have shot the vast majority of that in 5 years. All of a sudden that’s become 2 years and opened the door for an outright ban.

Your situation is your situation, personally I shoot 3-4 times a week for 6 landowners controlling vermin and fox over 4000 acres deer on half of it. I shoot at Bisley once a month and can easily do 200 rifle rounds or 400+ gallery rounds in a day. I’ve also just joined another club locally which will be gallery one night a week, again, easily shooting 200 - 400 rounds in a session.

So clearly my situation is quite different to yours, and I have bought bullets when they have come up at a good price. So when my RFD had a load of .357 bullet up at a good price last year and knowing I was joking the new club I bought 10,000 and a fully automated press - that’s only 2-3 years’ shooting. Really is that ‘my fault’?

The vast majority of bullets are for vermin / fox / target. Like you I generally only have around 100 rounds or less loaded for my deer calibres at any one time

But you’re clearly another Jack, so you won’t see past your own nose or your own interests.

 

[geoffw]

If in doubt, go sisal, all natural, a bit hairy, but works for me my friend....

Geez @Freeforester you'll be going vegan next!

PS Are we talking belt or underwear here?

 

[geoffw]

Well they announced a 5 year voluntary ban last year. I could and would have shot the vast majority of that in 5 years. All of a sudden that’s become 2 years and opened the door for an outright ban.

Your situation is your situation, personally I shoot 3-4 times a week for 6 landowners controlling vermin and fox over 4000 acres deer on half of it. I shoot at Bisley once a month and can easily do 200 rifle rounds or 400+ gallery rounds in a day. I’ve also just joined another club locally which will be gallery one night a week, again, easily shooting 200 - 400 rounds in a session.

So clearly my situation is quite different to yours, and I have bought bullets when they have come up at a good price. So when my RFD had a load of .357 bullet up at a good price last year and knowing I was joking the new club I bought 10,000 and a fully automated press - that’s only 2-3 years’ shooting. Really is that ‘my fault’?

But you’re clearly another Jack, so you won’t see past your own nose or your own interests.

I can, and shooting is in my interest. I didn't use the term "fault", I am in the same boat with 12g stocks bought with a 5yr transition in mind, but what you and I speculatively bought doesn't mean the world is going to stop evolving, for better or worse.

"it is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself.”

Having been there plenty of times myself (and I probably will be there again) I humbly (really) suggest that bitterness and thrashing around at fellow shipmates may provide temporary relief, but are not the real solution to a changing world.

 

[25 Sharps]

I can, and shooting is in my interest. I am in the same boat with 12g stocks bought with a 5yr transition in mind, but what you and I speculatively bought doesn't mean the world is going to stop evolving, for better or worse.

"it is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself.”

Having been there plenty of times myself (and I probably will be there again) I humbly (really) suggest that bitterness and thrashing around at fellow shipmates may provide temporary relief, but are not the real solution to a changing world.

Yes but my frustration and bitterness is towards the shooting organisations who could, and should, have handled this so much differently.

And I also find the ‘I’m alright Jack’ brigade hugely frustrating. A lot of people on this site can, perhaps understandably, not see past the world of stalking. There’s a whole lot of other shooting that goes on out there and will be far more affected by a lead ban.