If that was ever going to happen, it already would have happened. There is no premium, because, guess what, there is no consumer demand. Consumers don't care about this and the lead transition is being driven entirely by a tiny clique of zealots, and not consumers or the public.
UK REACH lead ammunition review announced
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
No evidence no change eh Connor ? Why didn’t this video spark a u turn on your policy “ a few years ago “ as you put it ? Or are you indeed trying to justify the stab in the back for the shooting community......
Woodenbeam
Well-Known Member
The video is very fuffy & emotive Conor - but conviently all the evidence seems to be scoffed by things that then bugger off somewhere never to be found again. If it was such an ecological disaster we would see the evidence laid all over the countryside.
The bit from Denmark was interesting but doesn’t set in stone that lead free is the way to go - each to their own and that is something that galls me. Having something imposed when the need is questionable.
This is almost like project fear Mark II - we just need some buffoon to stand up and make a stand, unfortunately all the shooting organisations seem to be have infiltrated by ’wokes’
The bit from Denmark was interesting but doesn’t set in stone that lead free is the way to go - each to their own and that is something that galls me. Having something imposed when the need is questionable.
This is almost like project fear Mark II - we just need some buffoon to stand up and make a stand, unfortunately all the shooting organisations seem to be have infiltrated by ’wokes’
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
So I ask again where are all the corpses? The tens of thousands of birds estimated to die. Where’s all the dead predators from secondary poisoning (assuming they are eating the birds we don’t see). I just do not see it.
I don’t deny lead is poisonous, I don’t deny it kills some birds. But the two videos a few years apart are using the same footage. If it was the problem they are purporting surely they would have more footage to use. Laziness or a lack of evidence?
I am yet to be convinced that this is not a back door attack on shooting. Rather than the massive ecological disaster that is implied by those pursuing this agenda.
Let us see the unequivocal proof, not the wild unsubstantiated figures that are bandied around a fact.
On the face of it. Far from no evidence no change.
It started with Swift (at least openly) but it does seem a stab in the back to me.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Brave effort Conor but there appear to be some people on SD that firmly believe that REACH is working to a secret BASC agenda to destroy shooting sports and no amount of evidence - and there's plenty of it- will convince them otherwise.
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
Just as devil's advocate The UK has 11,023 miles of coastline. 10,000 ducks sounds like a lot. Heaped up in the same place it would be, but spread out around all of the wetland in the country? How many acres of land is that? Forget about predators/carrion taking them. I'd be amazed if any got found anyway. What about birds that die at sea? I've seen Widgeon roost on the sea. I bet the seagulls and crabs would have them.
Woodenbeam
Well-Known Member
I think we need a study carried out on buzzards because they're immune to lead poisoning I reckon. They gobble up carrion and seem to be doing extremely well, in fact more buzzards than badgers which just shows how well they're doing 
Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
There does seem to be an awful lot about doesn’t thereI think we need a study carried out on buzzards because they're immune to lead poisoning I reckon. They gobble up carrion and seem to be doing extremely well, in fact more buzzards than badgers which just shows how well they're doing
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
When I was little my dad took us up to Scotland on holiday. I can still remember stopping at the side of a road to look at a buzzard and being amazed as I thought it was an eagle! I don't remember ever seeing anything bigger than a Kestrel well into my late teens/early twenties. Now we have Buzzards, Goshawks, Kites. I heard a raven a week ago I am sure.There does seem to be an awful lot about doesn’t there
I really like to see birds of prey and would be happy to have more.
If you ask a falconer about feeding lead shot game to their birds they won't entertain the idea as it will kill them.
My guess is that in a wild bird shot game/carrion really is an extremely small proportion of their diet vs road kill, stuff other predators have killed, young/juvenile animals, chicks, poults, leverets etc and invertebrates.
Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
Indeed , I’ve never seen as many birds of prey about as I do now , like you say shot game is probably a relatively small proportion of their diet however I live on a very large shooting estate and am the stalker for another large well known estate both have lots of birds of prey on them with buzzards and red kites thriving in fact the kites often circle above when I’ve shot a beast waiting for the gralloch ..... if lead is as terrible as honest Connor here is telling us why aren’t they all dead ?
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StephenToast
Well-Known Member
There was a research paper floating about regarding poisining in red kites. I think it found that 6 out of 100 showed signs of lead poisoning.
They are a prolific bird (where they are successful) so I imagine that the increase in population vastly outweighs the amount that suffer significant lead poisoning.
I'm happy to use non-lead for most of my shooting here and I ask that my pigeon shooters use steel. I provide some of their cartridges and they are happy enough to do so.
I like to see birds of prey about and I wouldn't want my activities to hinder their success.
I still use lead in my .22lr as there isn't an alternative yet.
I might go FAC air in the future but it seems like a lot of faff.
All that said. I'm not fussed on whether lead is banned. I am sure that the use of lead is in some way detrimental to the environment and I am sure that there are some health concerns in eating lead shot game but there are much bigger threats to our environment than lead ammo and much bigger threats to human health out there.
10,000 dead 100, 000 dead water fowl looks only to be a guess a guess that looks to have originated from the lead ammunition group report.
It was put to me by a local game shoot that they get so little money for the game by game dealers that to continue using lead shot they will just give the shot game away for free at the local farmers market with a sign saying contains lead shot.
It was put to me by a local game shoot that they get so little money for the game by game dealers that to continue using lead shot they will just give the shot game away for free at the local farmers market with a sign saying contains lead shot.
Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
There are far bigger concerns out there indeed , I’m glad we agree on something, this is a very thinly veiled threat to shooting many are too simple too see or worse they “ welcome “
I see you’re in Suffolk I used to stalk an awful lot there up until around 4 years ago there were a hell of a lot of BOP on my grounds there in fact I saw my first hobby down there
Woodenbeam
Well-Known Member
ST, I note your in the Suffolk area. There’s been a huge increase in buzzards around here & kites have now also appeared around the Bury St Edmunds area. We’re in the middle of an agricultural shooting area - there must be at least a few lead poisoned ducks around for the buzzards to eat and .22lr limping hares for the Kites to munch but things are doing well.
While I agree lead is toxic etc etc I feel the anti lead brigade have overstated the facts and it’s more a general anti shooting tactic which social media, peer pressure, wokes and greenie liberal townies are now adding their two pennies worth to.
I do shoot lead shot but look to fibre wads by preference. Air rifle, rimmie’s and CF‘s are lead projectiles which I personally have no complaints with. I eat a lot of what I shoot and apply common sense, damaged meat is avoided, the odd lead pellet may have to be spat out but I’m still here. The ferrets certainly have no complaints with lead killed lunches.
I think this is a classic case of a loud minority trying to impose their wishes on a mainly silent majority.
While I agree lead is toxic etc etc I feel the anti lead brigade have overstated the facts and it’s more a general anti shooting tactic which social media, peer pressure, wokes and greenie liberal townies are now adding their two pennies worth to.
I do shoot lead shot but look to fibre wads by preference. Air rifle, rimmie’s and CF‘s are lead projectiles which I personally have no complaints with. I eat a lot of what I shoot and apply common sense, damaged meat is avoided, the odd lead pellet may have to be spat out but I’m still here. The ferrets certainly have no complaints with lead killed lunches.
I think this is a classic case of a loud minority trying to impose their wishes on a mainly silent majority.
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
I love Hobbies. especially watching them hammering the big hawker dragonflies as the dragonflies are hawking bumblebees.There are far bigger concerns out there indeed , I’m glad we agree on something, this is a very thinly veiled threat to shooting many are too simple too see or worse they “ welcome “
I see you’re in Suffolk I used to stalk an awful lot there up until around 4 years ago there were a hell of a lot of BOP on my grounds there in fact I saw my first hobby down there
It's the ciiiirrrrrcle of laaaiiiiffffe.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on the environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming. Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for peer reviewed papers on lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...
scholar.google.com
As per the OP the situation ahead is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions.
The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.
There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes.
However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of: further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.
Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.
There are no immediate changes on the horizon. Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.
Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions. Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.
Google Scholar
As per the OP the situation ahead is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions.
The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.
There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes.
However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of: further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.
Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.
There are no immediate changes on the horizon. Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.
Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions. Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.
Conner can you give an answer to apthotpe's post.
UK REACH lead ammunition review announced
Since this is going to effect every shooter do you not think it warrants a reply on SD.?
UK REACH lead ammunition review announced
Since this is going to effect every shooter do you not think it warrants a reply on SD.?
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
Yet we also have had a previous lead ban overturned. Some surprisingly similar tactics used in getting said ban through.There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on the environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming. Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for peer reviewed papers on lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...
Google Scholar
As per the OP the situation ahead is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions.
The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.
There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes.
However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of: further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.
Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.
There are no immediate changes on the horizon. Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.
Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions. Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.
It is not a simple case of lead bad get rid. The fact that a ban was overturned, something that lets face it as far as firearms are concerned very rarely happens. With evidence from their own government figures as it seems. Points towards the risks being overplayed by those with a vested interest in doing so.
Conor I love your optimism, will that be like the home office review into their firearms guide that took place quite some time back now, but we still live with the mess that is GP medical reports and they have yet to publish their new guidance.
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