Game dealer not accepting lead shot carcasses

Provide me with 100% cast iron evidence that copper will result in more wounded animals, I’m not talking bullshite figures I’m after FACT!

I have lost 3 animals in almost 15 years out of well over 2000 animals, tell me that’s a high wounding rate!

as much as you are the UK’s very own master stalker I’d take Nathan Foster’s view over yours any day of the week as he has done far more extensive testing with various cartridges and game.

 
Increased ricochet, lower expansion - we’re talking polar difference between a bullet that expands to twice its size to one that disintegrates in the animal- meaning that there will be more wounded animals.

Far lower BC for lead free projectiles meaning that longer shots, which sometimes are necessary with spooky foxes, are more likely to go wrong, meaning more wounded animals.

sever lack of options for lead free bullets to choose from and even less for lead free factory ammunition.

lack of suitability of current fox rifles to shoot longer lead free bullets. For deer you are talking .243 and 100 gr, for fox .222, .22 hornet, 22-250, .204 etc will all have issues if they don’t like the very few bullets on offer
I think I said this before ages ago relating to deer on another thread but my shooting is limited to sub 200yds. Not for the lack of ability because obviously I'm like Billy Dixon when it comes to rifle shooting or the lack of opportunity as you can see deer/foxes much further than that but more for safety. Big flat fields make backstop difficult.

I might occasionally stretch to 250 but beyond that is extremely rare.

There is no issue with expansion on foxes with the 165 gr HIT at that range of that I am certain and it isn't really effected by wind to speak of. Mind you. If its really really windy I don't stretch the range anyway.

With a like for like comparison of my shooting prior to using the non-lead to my shooting now there is no noticeable difference on deer and foxes.
 
Easy, it is a legal requirement to use expanding ammunition on deer.

Expansion leads to a quicker, more humane death, lead bullets expand and transfer their energy better therefore give a wider margin for error.

Equally a bullet that suffers less drop and less wind drift is more likely to hit where you aim. That’s just physics which even you can’t argue with.
image.webp
 
I think I said this before ages ago relating to deer on another thread but my shooting is limited to sub 200yds. Not for the lack of ability because obviously I'm like Billy Dixon when it comes to rifle shooting or the lack of opportunity as you can see deer/foxes much further than that but more for safety. Big flat fields make backstop difficult.

I might occasionally stretch to 250 but beyond that is extremely rare.

There is no issue with expansion on foxes with the 165 gr HIT at that range of that I am certain and it isn't really effected by wind to speak of. Mind you. If its really really windy I don't stretch the range anyway.

With a like for like comparison of my shooting prior to using the non-lead to my shooting now there is no noticeable difference on deer and foxes.
Yes, I can totally see that for a 165 at 30-06 velocities. You have to admit though that is not a typical foxing calibre and is never going to be granted for fox control no matter how windy!!

So for foxing we are talking typical foxing calibres as would be granted under the guidance, .22H, .222, .223 22-250 etc. As that’s what fox shooters use, not everyone has access to deer or deer calibres
 
Yes, I can totally see that for a 165 at 30-06 velocities. You have to admit though that is not a typical foxing calibre and is never going to be granted for fox control no matter how windy!!

So for foxing we are talking typical foxing calibres as would be granted under the guidance, .22H, .222, .223 22-250 etc. As that’s what fox shooters use, not everyone has access to deer or deer calibres
Yes. For some unfathomable reason some strange people don't want to own a .30-06. It's weird given that it is the best calibre ever made but who am I to judge?

I am aware of the difference in forces policy but I had mine conditioned for fox from the outset before AOLQ existed.

I will take your word on the .22 calibres as I can't speak from experience although I do know a friend of mine is using .223 for foxes, hares and rabbits etc with non-lead as a stipulation of the people he works for and he seems to be happy with it.

I have been toying with buying a .22 Hornet for years and have never taken the plunge. The last couple of days I have been googling non-lead .22 bullets for that and there are a few offerings in a couple of weights from 35gr to 50gr it looks like. No idea on their effectiveness but I don't have any reason to believe that they wouldn't work.
 
I guess the debate on this shows that there’s should be at least an extended period say 5-10
Years (as in the scheme of shooting lead projectiles that’s nothing) where specific research is done to establish the clear difference relating to humane killing, safety due to increased ricochet, calibre difference...to call in requirements from a game dealer as soon as next year is a joke.

it is unfortunate to see in fighting and I think one of the reasons we may be doomed!

regards,
Gixer
 
Yes. For some unfathomable reason some strange people don't want to own a .30-06. It's weird given that it is the best calibre ever made but who am I to judge?

I am aware of the difference in forces policy but I had mine conditioned for fox from the outset before AOLQ existed.

I will take your word on the .22 calibres as I can't speak from experience although I do know a friend of mine is using .223 for foxes, hares and rabbits etc with non-lead as a stipulation of the people he works for and he seems to be happy with it.

I have been toying with buying a .22 Hornet for years and have never taken the plunge. The last couple of days I have been googling non-lead .22 bullets for that and there are a few offerings in a couple of weights from 35gr to 50gr it looks like. No idea on their effectiveness but I don't have any reason to believe that they wouldn't work.


All non lead will likely be too long to stabilise and too long to fit in the magazine of most hornets, particularly the CZ 527 hornet which is my favourite rifle. Everyone should own one too!
 
Compared to a v-max in a fox or a 120 NBT in a deer, no!

What about these frangible jobs?


 
All non lead will likely be too long to stabilise and too long to fit in the magazine of most hornets, particularly the CZ 527 hornet which is my favourite rifle. Everyone should own one too!
Right now I am fired up enough to put in for a variation, buy the reloading gear, get a rifle and start playing with the bullets... But I've had a lie in today. Speak to me in a month and I'll be no further forward. Especially as my ought six is just sitting in the cabinet being all convenient.
 
I think @bowji john is doing just that.

I'm embarrassed to say that I've not yet done the testing

I plan a series of penetration tests to compare flat meplat solids (peregrine VRG1), round meplat 'softs' (peregrine VRG3) and hydros - for straight line penetration

I only have hydros in 2 calibres - 9.3 and 404 Jeff

Their purpose was / is

1. As a back-up round in a PG scenario when hunting with the relatively light weight 9.3 and suddenly running into something 'large with attitude'

2. A compromise round (between solid and soft) in the 404 jeff mag (only 3 rounds ) when deciding on the make up of what to carry when in the bush (there is endless speculation as to whether to carry solid, solid, soft or soft soft solid or ..... you get the picture)

(The hydros are advertised as a high penetration round that work as a solid but with the wound channel of a soft)

I've never intended them as a stalking round in the UK - I use Nosler Partition and 143 ELDx for that :coat:

The project got postponed as my 404 Jeff is still with the gunsmith - returned to him as it had feeding issues

I did find that there is an absence of good reloading data for the hydro - The issue being the sheer length of them and the seating depth required with the potential for compressed load issues

It didn't help that my gunsmith told me not to put those rounds through my rifle if I valued the rifle (no - I've yet to get to the bottom of that one)

Both my rifles - being medium bore have very long throats in the chamber

I wonder - with some smaller calibre UK rifles - whether the length of these copper bullets might cause jamming into the lands or difficulties in chambering ??

I will work up some 9.3 loads over the next couple of weeks and report back

As an afterthought - with these larger DG bullets - I think they are brass not copper
 
I have visions on carlW slumped in a corner rocking back and forwards saying “it’s still toxic, it’s still toxic”.....Lee at a computer shouting “just shoot the things”.....sharps 25 stroking an old rifle saying “it’s ok, we’ll find something to stick in you that works”....and me at a reloading bench trying to change seating depth by 100,000ths of an inch saying ....”this’ll make it group”.....

and some other person who I don’t know the name of trying to advertise a high end EELL....😂
 
I have visions on carlW slumped in a corner rocking back and forwards saying “it’s still toxic, it’s still toxic”.....Lee at a computer shouting “just shoot the things”.....sharps 25 stroking an old rifle saying “it’s ok, we’ll find something to stick in you that works”....and me at a reloading bench trying to change seating depth by 100,000ths of an inch saying ....”this’ll make it group”.....

and some other person who I don’t know the name of trying to advertise a high end EELL....😂
I do just that, roll them up and shoot the buggers!

funnily enough I’m sure a few more thinned skinned game will fall over this weekend😂😂
 
No they are crap aren't they Lee?
Here is my 80grain Fox from my .243, dead hind.
I have just counted my box of 50 bullets from Edinburgh rifles, I have 12 left, 6 to zero (take note @gixer1 🤣) that means 32 deer shot ranging from big Devon stags to Roe Deer, from 50 to 220 yards all dead, none lost, all broadside.
IMG-20210303-WA0003.jpeg
Cheers
Richard
 
Back
Top