Copper kills what calibres

[Sagebrush]

For High Bird shooting, what we call "Pass Shooting" here in the US, the lead ban has pretty much been overcome for decades in US ammunition for Waterfowl shooting. We banned lead for waterfowl decades ago.
Even 22 rimfire has been commercially available from European companies for some time. It's just more expensive than Plain Jane ammo we grew up with.
There's no real reason target shooting can't be done lead free, the bullets can be just as accurate as our favorite premium target bullets. They're just longer for a given weight or lighter for a given length.
US is going Green for military ammo. It's really range management - EPA driven lead bans.

 

[Heym SR20]

Centrefire rifles - don’t think any calibres per se save possibly the small .17s will die. Some rifles with slow twist designed for small for calibre bullets fired at high velocity may struggle.

22 rf - RWS / Norma have developed high velocity 20gn expanding non toxic ammo. Yes its makes a noise, but so does the 17 HMR. Actually the 17 HMR may be the looser, but its already plagued with a reputation of unreliable ammo.

Shotguns - development of non toxic viable alternatives are well underway or already widely used in other countries. In the US high velocity steel are widely used on ducks and geese to all sorts of distances, and no reason why such cartridges could not be used for high phaesants. Most are already shot with 3” chambered long barreled modern over and unders. There needs to be some movement on our arcane proof requirements - the same Beretta’s, Brownings and Benelli’s are used with these cartridges elsewhere in the world, but we cant get them here yet. We may see wider use of Semi autos as affordable long distance game guns in not too distant future - 20 years ago no body used over and unders on game, now comments are made if you use a side by side

16, 20 and 28 bores have enough of a following that similar cartridges will follow, but I think the trend towards 20’s shooting 12 bore loads will revert back to lighter 12’s and 16’s shooting 12 and 16 bore loads.

410’s - well I love them and now have 4. But cartridges are expensive and they are a specialist gun - a light 20 with a light load is much better starter gun. They will be a challenge for an affordable non-toxic load especially in 2” cartridge. For use on game a handload of six or sevens of bismuth would make sense, and you would three for every 12 bore load, so in the greater scheme of things affordable. But I would want a cheap load for shooting rats and other vermin out of the bathroom window.

Things are changing and evolving. We now all drive fuel injected cars and pickups with power steering which are highly fuel efficient for are day to day use. And the series 2 landrover - fond memories and fun to drive a restored one, but I would not relish driving 500 miles in one go again - nor paying for the fuel.

 

[25 Sharps]

For High Bird shooting, what we call "Pass Shooting" here in the US, the lead ban has pretty much been overcome for decades in US ammunition for Waterfowl shooting. We banned lead for waterfowl decades ago.
Even 22 rimfire has been commercially available from European companies for some time. It's just more expensive than Plain Jane ammo we grew up with.
There's no real reason target shooting can't be done lead free, the bullets can be just as accurate as our favorite premium target bullets. They're just longer for a given weight or lighter for a given length.
US is going Green for military ammo. It's really range management - EPA driven lead bans.

Most .22 shot in this country is subsonic as we have easy access to moderators, that just won’t work with non lead currently.

As for target shooting currently copper bullets are banned at our national shooting ground.

 

[25 Sharps]

Centrefire rifles - don’t think any calibres per se save possibly the small .17s will die. Some rifles with slow twist designed for small for calibre bullets fired at high velocity may struggle.

22 rf - RWS / Norma have developed high velocity 20gn expanding non toxic ammo. Yes its makes a noise, but so does the 17 HMR. Actually the 17 HMR may be the looser, but its already plagued with a reputation of unreliable ammo.

Shotguns - development of non toxic viable alternatives are well underway or already widely used in other countries. In the US high velocity steel are widely used on ducks and geese to all sorts of distances, and no reason why such cartridges could not be used for high phaesants. Most are already shot with 3” chambered long barreled modern over and unders. There needs to be some movement on our arcane proof requirements - the same Beretta’s, Brownings and Benelli’s are used with these cartridges elsewhere in the world, but we cant get them here yet. We may see wider use of Semi autos as affordable long distance game guns in not too distant future - 20 years ago no body used over and unders on game, now comments are made if you use a side by side

16, 20 and 28 bores have enough of a following that similar cartridges will follow, but I think the trend towards 20’s shooting 12 bore loads will revert back to lighter 12’s and 16’s shooting 12 and 16 bore loads.

410’s - well I love them and now have 4. But cartridges are expensive and they are a specialist gun - a light 20 with a light load is much better starter gun. They will be a challenge for an affordable non-toxic load especially in 2” cartridge. For use on game a handload of six or sevens of bismuth would make sense, and you would three for every 12 bore load, so in the greater scheme of things affordable. But I would want a cheap load for shooting rats and other vermin out of the bathroom window.

Things are changing and evolving. We now all drive fuel injected cars and pickups with power steering which are highly fuel efficient for are day to day use. And the series 2 landrover - fond memories and fun to drive a restored one, but I would not relish driving 500 miles in one go again - nor paying for the fuel.

25 mpg is not highly efficient and that’s if I take it steady!

Not sure what you’re getting at with the high velocity .22, that’s already available, the advantage of .22 and what makes it useful is subsonic ammo combined with a moderated rifle.

 

[Mungo]

Most .22 shot in this country is subsonic as we have easy access to moderators, that just won’t work with non lead currently.

As for target shooting currently copper bullets are banned at our national shooting ground.

Why will .22 not work with non lead?

I keep asking this, and never get an answer.

You’re not relying on expansion to kill with subsonic 22s. I very much doubt that it matters what metal makes the hole - a 22 sized hole in the right place will kill any rabbit.

 

[25 Sharps]

Why will .22 not work with non lead?

I keep asking this, and never get an answer.

You’re not relying on expansion to kill with subsonic 22s. I very much doubt that it matters what metal makes the hole - a 22 sized hole in the right place will kill any rabbit.

Once again you are not reading what I am writing HV, no probs.

BUT subsonic will not work in any current factory .22 rifles because a 38-40 gr bullet won’t stabilise.

As for not relying on expansion, no it’s not relied upon but a soft subsonic .22 will expand and kill more quickly than a .22 bullet that drills through. That’s why people use expanding ammunition.

A .22 sized hole through a Deer will kill it, doesn’t make it humane.

 

[Heym SR20]

Once again you are not reading what I am writing HV, no probs.

BUT subsonic will not work in any current factory .22 rifles because a 38-40 gr bullet won’t stabilise.

As for not relying on expansion, no it’s not relied upon but a soft subsonic .22 will expand and kill more quickly than a .22 bullet that drills through. That’s why people use expanding ammunition.

A .22 sized hole through a Deer will kill it, doesn’t make it humane.

There is no reason you could not make a subsonic 22 lr round with copper or tin bullet same length as an existing lead bullet - yes it would be a bit lighter - perhaps 30 gn, but it would stabilise and be accurate. You could even a large hollow point and segmenting cuts so it would open up like a pistol bullet.

Yes it would have a little less energy than lead non toxic, but still a lot more than an FAC air rifle.

But of lot of SD members have gone across to .17 HMR for rabbit control as it gives a bit of extra range, and sonic crack never seems to bother them or the bunnies they shoot.

But appreciate there are times when subsonics are useful. But you still have the thud of bullet impacting and rattle of the bolt, and the soubd of the quad bike etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

Most .22 shot in this country is subsonic as we have easy access to moderators, that just won’t work with non lead currently.

As for target shooting currently copper bullets are banned at our national shooting ground.

Well most military ammo is going across to non toxic solid copper, steel cored copper. The US Military has already gone that way. And the military put far more rounds down ranges than most civilians.

And with ranges vast majority of bullets end up in the sand trap. You are not putting them into animals that end up in either the human or wild animal food chain.

But given that military is going nontoxic, the high volumes will bring down the cost of military type ammo that is often used in target disciplines.

 

[Pedro]

Pretty much, as I put in my second post. Those who can afford the four figure days at high birds will likely afford the increase in cost of the ammo required.

But high birds are not just shot by toffs with Range Rovers wafting them to their pegs who could afford to have anything in their cartridges.

The vast majority of pheasant shoots are farm shoots and syndicate shoots that share keeper duties and pay a few hundred of their hard earned pounds to indulge their hobby. But quite often they include a couple or more drives of truly high birds. And indeed this has been the case for a very long time. The average game shooter will more likely be your next door neighbour, not some investment banker. Just the same as the average deer stalker doesn't actually conform to the public image of one. The demise of lead shot will hit those who pay a high percentage of their disposable income for their sport the most and due to the amount of ammo expended, game shooters in particular.

I doubt that some miracle material for projectiles, whether bullets or pellets will appear anytime soon and all that can be hoped for is that the economics of mass production will reduce the prices of viable alternatives to some degree.

 

[Sagebrush]

I doubt that some miracle material for projectiles, whether bullets or pellets will appear anytime soon and all that can be hoped for is that the economics of mass production will reduce the prices of viable alternatives to some degree.

Why can't the non-toxic Waterfowl shot we use in the US, which can cleanly kill Geese at 70 yards, not kill Pheasants just as easily?
Why can't accurate bullets we already shoot at US ranges not also be equally accurate in the British Isles?
There aren't going to be new miracle metals. Just various alloys, mixes, and configurations in a search for the best of purpose. All the major players that sell in the Americas have invested in the game and produce usable products.

 

[Mungo]

Once again you are not reading what I am writing HV, no probs.

BUT subsonic will not work in any current factory .22 rifles because a 38-40 gr bullet won’t stabilise.

As for not relying on expansion, no it’s not relied upon but a soft subsonic .22 will expand and kill more quickly than a .22 bullet that drills through. That’s why people use expanding ammunition.

A .22 sized hole through a Deer will kill it, doesn’t make it humane.

I am.

I just don’t believe the assertion that a non lead .22lr slug at subsonic speeds is actually going to give measurably different outcomes when shooting rabbits.

Proportional to body size, the hole created by an unexpanded .22 in a rabbit is bigger than the hole created by a soft point .308 in a red deer.

Moreover, most shots with .22lr are at the CNS - head or spine. Where it doesn’t matter what the bullet’s made out of.

But I have read and understood what you’ve said about .22cf. Yes - I now see that for longer range fox shooting with .22cf, there is a real problem. For your sake, I hope that sanity prevails and non lead is not imposed on vermin shooting. The rationale is clearly extremely weak there.

 

[25 Sharps]

I am.

I just don’t believe the assertion that a non lead .22lr slug at subsonic speeds is actually going to give measurably different outcomes when shooting rabbits.

Proportional to body size, the hole created by an unexpanded .22 in a rabbit is bigger than the hole created by a soft point .308 in a red deer.

Moreover, most shots with .22lr are at the CNS - head or spine. Where it doesn’t matter what the bullet’s made out of.

But I have read and understood what you’ve said about .22cf. Yes - I now see that for longer range fox shooting with .22cf, there is a real problem. For your sake, I hope that sanity prevails and non lead is not imposed on vermin shooting. The rationale is clearly extremely weak there.

It might kill rabbits quite effectively if you can hit them as the bullets will be going sideways but a careful aimed shot at the CNS with a bullet that is not stable, and therefore is not going to be accurate, is going to be difficult.

Lets try a different explanation, Barnes brought out the 30 gr Varmint grenade specifically for the hornet because the 36 gr (still lighter than subsonic 38 or 40 gr lead bullets) was not accurate in a 1:16 twist from a cartridge capable of firing the bullet at 3000 FPS plus.

Based on that how can a 38/40 gr non lead bullet be stable and therefore accurate fired from the same twist at 1000 FPS?

The same bullet fired from a .222 will kill just fine and be accurate but it needs speeds that the .22LR isn’t capable of for stability and accuracy to achieve clean humane kills.

Well most military ammo is going across to non toxic solid copper, steel cored copper. The US Military has already gone that way. And the military put far more rounds down ranges than most civilians.

And with ranges vast majority of bullets end up in the sand trap. You are not putting them into animals that end up in either the human or wild animal food chain.

But given that military is going nontoxic, the high volumes will bring down the cost of military type ammo that is often used in target disciplines.

you realise ‘military type ammo’ AKA ‘surplus’ is already available at around £0.60 a round? Can’t see that cost coming down.

 

[25 Sharps]

There is no reason you could not make a subsonic 22 lr round with copper or tin bullet same length as an existing lead bullet - yes it would be a bit lighter - perhaps 30 gn, but it would stabilise and be accurate. You could even a large hollow point and segmenting cuts so it would open up like a pistol bullet.

Yes it would have a little less energy than lead non toxic, but still a lot more than an FAC air rifle.

But of lot of SD members have gone across to .17 HMR for rabbit control as it gives a bit of extra range, and sonic crack never seems to bother them or the bunnies they shoot.

But appreciate there are times when subsonics are useful. But you still have the thud of bullet impacting and rattle of the bolt, and the soubd of the quad bike etc.

You’re wrong on subsonic 30 gr being a lot more powerful than an FAC air rifle, most .25 air rifles can shoot at simulate power levels with a 31 gr pellet. That said air rifle pellet weight and therefore power will drop drastically due to using non lead pellets.

As for there being no reason, again you’re wrong, if it was easy why has no one done it. Unless you fired the bullet with just the primer compound you will struggle to keep the velocity down.

That said there are already lightweight rounds available in the form of .22 shorts, and CB caps. The vast majority of folk that try them instead of an air rifle report terrible accuracy. My rifle will shoot subsonics into a 1/4” group at 60 yards and an inch at 100 yards that accuracy will be lost.

As for people switching to HMR, I don’t really need you to tell me about shooting vermin as I’d guess you do far less of it than me.

I had an HMR years ago but sold it due to too many hang fires and a bullet lodging in the barrel.

I have a section 1 shotgun, .22 LR, .22 WMR semi and bolt action and FAC and sub 12 air rifles. I shoot a variety of ground and all of the above have their place (hence being able to satisfy the good reason requirement). The .22 LR for example is useful for shooting rabbits in horse paddocks around jumpy horses, or near to houses at night where a supersonic round would lead to noise complaints to the landowner.

 

[Mungo]

It might kill rabbits quite effectively if you can hit them as the bullets will be going sideways but a careful aimed shot at the CNS with a bullet that is not stable, and therefore is not going to be accurate, is going to be difficult.

Lets try a different explanation, Barnes brought out the 30 gr Varmint grenade specifically for the hornet because the 36 gr (still lighter than subsonic 38 or 40 gr lead bullets) was not accurate in a 1:16 twist from a cartridge capable of firing the bullet at 3000 FPS plus.

Based on that how can a 38/40 gr non lead bullet be stable and therefore accurate fired from the same twist at 1000 FPS?

The same bullet fired from a .222 will kill just fine and be accurate but it needs speeds that the .22LR isn’t capable of for stability and accuracy to achieve clean humane kills.


you realise ‘military type ammo’ AKA ‘surplus’ is already available at around £0.60 a round? Can’t see that cost coming down.

I’m still struggling to understand.

If you make a non lead bullet the same length as a 40gr lead bullet, why would this not stabilise?

Yes, it would be quite a lot lighter - and that would cause problems in the wind that would need thinking about. But as you say, most .22lr subsonic shooting is done at short range.

 

[Malxwal]

But high birds are not just shot by toffs with Range Rovers wafting them to their pegs who could afford to have anything in their cartridges.

The vast majority of pheasant shoots are farm shoots and syndicate shoots that share keeper duties and pay a few hundred of their hard earned pounds to indulge their hobby. But quite often they include a couple or more drives of truly high birds. And indeed this has been the case for a very long time. The average game shooter will more likely be your next door neighbour, not some investment banker. Just the same as the average deer stalker doesn't actually conform to the public image of one. The demise of lead shot will hit those who pay a high percentage of their disposable income for their sport the most and due to the amount of ammo expended, game shooters in particular.

I doubt that some miracle material for projectiles, whether bullets or pellets will appear anytime soon and all that can be hoped for is that the economics of mass production will reduce the prices of viable alternatives to some degree.

You are right, it will hit us all if we can't buy lead ammo. But, I'd also assume that all these smaller farm shoots don't have to put their birds to a game dealer in order to continue to operate. Really, on these shoots, the birds should be being used up by guns, beaters etc. I know the shoots I work on the birds are all used without going to the stealer, as lead or not, there's no market for them.
As I initially said, the big bag high bird days ( 300+ high birds where a peg costs £2k or more) are my in the main the pursuit of those wealthy enough to spend a bit more on the required bismuth etc in order to allow those large commercial shoots to continue to put their considerable volume of birds to the market and onwards to the end consumers that are driving the lead free move.
I have a considerable amount of lead ammo for my guns, enough to see out my bird shooting days, and I foresee that I'll be using it, without breaking any laws.

 

[shbangsteve]

You are right, it will hit us all if we can't buy lead ammo. But, I'd also assume that all these smaller farm shoots don't have to put their birds to a game dealer in order to continue to operate. Really, on these shoots, the birds should be being used up by guns, beaters etc. I know the shoots I work on the birds are all used without going to the stealer, as lead or not, there's no market for them.
As I initially said, the big bag high bird days ( 300+ high birds where a peg costs £2k or more) are my in the main the pursuit of those wealthy enough to spend a bit more on the required bismuth etc in order to allow those large commercial shoots to continue to put their considerable volume of birds to the market and onwards to the end consumers that are driving the lead free move.
I have a considerable amount of lead ammo for my guns, enough to see out my bird shooting days, and I foresee that I'll be using it, without breaking any laws.

But high birds are not just shot by toffs with Range Rovers wafting them to their pegs who could afford to have anything in their cartridges.

The vast majority of pheasant shoots are farm shoots and syndicate shoots that share keeper duties and pay a few hundred of their hard earned pounds to indulge their hobby. But quite often they include a couple or more drives of truly high birds. And indeed this has been the case for a very long time. The average game shooter will more likely be your next door neighbour, not some investment banker. Just the same as the average deer stalker doesn't actually conform to the public image of one. The demise of lead shot will hit those who pay a high percentage of their disposable income for their sport the most and due to the amount of ammo expended, game shooters in particular.

I doubt that some miracle material for projectiles, whether bullets or pellets will appear anytime soon and all that can be hoped for is that the economics of mass production will reduce the prices of viable alternatives to some degree.

It's all relative. If you shoot a box of cartridges on a local shoot, chances are you've had a bloody good day. Is an extra £20 really going to spoil that day or stop you doing it ? If you are in a local syndicate I dare say the cost per bird would not be much less than on a big commercial shoot. You just aren't shooting so many and the cost is spread over the season.

 

[User00040]

I’m still struggling to understand.

If you make a non lead bullet the same length as a 40gr lead bullet, why would this not stabilise?

Yes, it would be quite a lot lighter - and that would cause problems in the wind that would need thinking about. But as you say, most .22lr subsonic shooting is done at short range.

Physics, and you know the answer(s).

Copper, tin and other metals are neither as dense nor as soft as lead.

.22LR lead bullets are soft swaged (I believe) and heeled (one on the right of the diagram below)

Now, they are not pure lead, but pretty soft, unjacketed projectiles which are lubricated (usually some sort of paraffin based wax).

You should be able to create an indent in them with your fingernail.

The use of a 40 odd grain bullet has two objectives, one, keeping the round 'subsonic' (this actually varies depending on conditions) then the bullet has to leave the muzzle at a certain speed, and 22.LR subsonic rounds have very small charges behind them.

Two, accuracy (where it really matters!). The .22LR has a standard 1:16" twist, which I think has been unchanged since it's inception.

So, you have a design which has worked for over 100 years, used exclusively in the Olympics, and killed nearly everything on the planet (including a world record Grizzly, although it was .22 Long, not LR!)

Why change?

I happily shoot my .22LR out to 125 meters and it kills vermin at that distance with reasonably predictable wind drift, after 150m the accuracy drops off exponentially, and I would not be comfortable if I had just one shot.

If you want 100% lead free at 'close range' buy a captive bolt gun and be done with it.

Someone put up a video of Sika being snared and dispatched with a knife in Japan and many of you lot were quick to sneer at it.

If you want to have 100% lead free meat and minimal damage, that is the way! (although illegal here)

 

[Mungo]

Physics, and you know the answer(s).

Copper, tin and other metals are neither as dense nor as soft as lead.

.22LR lead bullets are soft swaged (I believe) and heeled (one on the right of the diagram below)

Now, they are not pure lead, but pretty soft, unjacketed projectiles which are lubricated (usually some sort of paraffin based wax).

You should be able to create an indent in them with your fingernail.

The use of a 40 odd grain bullet has two objectives, one, keeping the round 'subsonic' (this actually varies depending on conditions) then the bullet has to leave the muzzle at a certain speed, and 22.LR subsonic rounds have very small charges behind them.

Two, accuracy (where it really matters!). The .22LR has a standard 1:16" twist, which I think has been unchanged since it's inception.

So, you have a design which has worked for over 100 years, used exclusively in the Olympics, and killed nearly everything on the planet (including a world record Grizzly, although it was .22 Long, not LR!)

Why change?

I happily shoot my .22LR out to 125 meters and it kills vermin at that distance with reasonably predictable wind drift, after 150m the accuracy drops off exponentially, and I would not be comfortable if I had just one shot.

If you want 100% lead free at 'close range' buy a captive bolt gun and be done with it.

Someone put up a video of Sika being snared and dispatched with a knife in Japan and many of you lot were quick to sneer at it.

If you want to have 100% lead free meat and minimal damage, that is the way! (although illegal here)

You’ve not actually answered the question.

If you make a non lead bullet the same length as a 40gr lead bullet, why would it not stabilise in a standard twist barrel at the same speed as a lead bullet?

The principle works for cf rounds, so why shouldn’t it work for .22lr?

 

[25 Sharps]

I’m still struggling to understand.

If you make a non lead bullet the same length as a 40gr lead bullet, why would this not stabilise?

Yes, it would be quite a lot lighter - and that would cause problems in the wind that would need thinking about. But as you say, most .22lr subsonic shooting is done at short range.

This really is painful. See post above reference .22 shorts and CB caps. You need the weight of the bullet to achieve the subsonic velocity with the available base capacity.

That is why .22 subsonic are generally 38-42 gr and .300 whisper for example are around 200 grains.

You cannot effectively load a lighter bullet to subsonic speeds with the cartridge capacity. If it was that easy they’d already be doing it!

plus with the loss of weight you lose power, power being a major factor in acheiving a humane despatch. A 40 gr at 1000 is doing 89 ft-lb, a 30 is 67, this gap will widen as the range stretches out as the lighter bullet will shed power quicker.

You say close range but 80 yards is easily doable with a good rifle and steady rest like quad sticks, more for some.

 

[Mungo]

This really is painful. See post above reference .22 shorts and CB caps. You need the weight of the bullet to achieve the subsonic velocity with the available base capacity.

That is why .22 subsonic are generally 38-42 gr and .300 whisper for example are around 200 grains.

You cannot effectively load a lighter bullet to subsonic speeds with the cartridge capacity. If it was that easy they’d already be doing it!

plus with the loss of weight you lose power, power being a major factor in acheiving a humane despatch. A 40 gr at 1000 is doing 89 ft-lb, a 30 is 67, this gap will widen as the range stretches out as the lighter bullet will shed power quicker.

You say close range but 80 yards is easily doable with a good rifle and steady rest like quad sticks, more for some.

Forgive me, but you tend not to answer very clearly or directly.

What you’re saying is that in order to get a sub sonic 30gr bullet, you need to reduce the charge.

Fine. So why is this not possible?

It does not, on the face of it, seem to be a particularly insurmountable task.

I struggle to see how it is beyond the wit of modern ballisticians to devise a recipe that allows you to shoot a non lead 30gr bullet from a standard twist barrel at sub sonic speeds.

So - since you already clearly think I’m an idiot, spell out the problem.