Exactly the attitude I am on about .
Are UK Outfitters reluctant to deal with British stalkers,
- Thread starter Tulloch
- Start date
There is no such thing as "decent" local lads my personal grounds I have because the "local lads" made a mess of it and my work grounds are not mine to give up and give to someone else. You obviously have not taken the time to read what I put, did I complain about my clients? No I didn't in fact the reason for my post is in defence of UK stalkers, I was simply asking why UK Outfitters have decided to move away from dealing with UK clients.
I am not shy in saying I have literally a list of people that I just won't deal with. That could be down to their attitudes shown towards me on social media or the amount of times they have kicked tyres. Ask anyone, I will leterally give you as much of my time is possible, I never heard sell and in fact I have told a lot of people that what I sell is not for them or to wait until they are pretty sorted. I am open in my approach.
There is a new chapter coming for me in this industry and it is going to shock a few people when they find out what it is and I am not going to advertise the fact, I can guarantee though that no stalker in this country will get rid of me that easy.
Alot more from me to come that's for sure.
teyhan1
Well-Known Member
National FEO advisor? LOL
Haha no, have nowhere near enough knowledge for that kind of role, t
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sikamalc
Administrator
Seems to me that some are not taking into account that running a business is also about making a reasonable living. One has to look at the logistics. I am lucky in that one of my main areas is West Sussex, and I have a great place to stay when I am down on the estate. This cost me over a period of about 2 years around £6000 to improve it so I was comfortable, and also had a good working larder with walk in chiller. My travel time to the estate is about 90 minutes.
When I take bookings for the winter on Fallow and Roe I try to put at least 3 to 5 days together to make it viable whilst I am there, and also double up as I also have 2 guides that come down to stay and work for me.
On the other areas I have in Bedfordshire its about a 2.5 hour run to get there and then I have to stay in the BB on the farm. I get a slightly reduced rate and clients get to stay on site. This again has to be a period of a minimum of 2 days, and I can take up to 3 clients. All stalking different areas. Overheads are higher, but using common sense can be reduced by eating in and using the farm kitchen to eat in.
Scotland is a trip and a half for me and always has been, so its at least 3 to 4 weeks in the rut period. The logistics are put in place and the fees people pay make sure that after I leave I at least have a profit. Its a lot of money to run it. The food and wine bill last time for 3 weeks touched nearly £2000.
But this is Outfitting, being a sporting agent is just selling it on, its not arranging and conducting the whole hunt, which Outfitting is.
90% of my clients are UK deer stalkers, the vast majority return to hunt with me, whether its a day or two or one outing. Of course the price is different for overseas clients as they require meeting and greating at the airport, transport throughout the days they are here, taking to the local pub at night for a meal, looking after throughout the day, licences etc. But I have had some that were not very good, and others that became firm friends. Much the same as UK stalkers, some good some bad. But in general I have been very lucky and am thankful for the continuing support I get from my clients.
There will always be the odd client who mucks you about, you know the one that cancels on you a day before they are due to go, with some lame excuse. I think as its their hobby, they think screwing a stalker about makes no difference. Not realising or caring that its a living, and that other guides may be involved and might have taken time off to help out. If its a genuine excuse most offer to pay for the missed booking. Occasionally I get one that wants the small booking deposit back (the last one was about 2 years back I think) and in that instance they can jog on. In most cases I hold it over and they re book another date.
You have to be fair with people, it goes a long way in business and people think more of you and will return.
When I take bookings for the winter on Fallow and Roe I try to put at least 3 to 5 days together to make it viable whilst I am there, and also double up as I also have 2 guides that come down to stay and work for me.
On the other areas I have in Bedfordshire its about a 2.5 hour run to get there and then I have to stay in the BB on the farm. I get a slightly reduced rate and clients get to stay on site. This again has to be a period of a minimum of 2 days, and I can take up to 3 clients. All stalking different areas. Overheads are higher, but using common sense can be reduced by eating in and using the farm kitchen to eat in.
Scotland is a trip and a half for me and always has been, so its at least 3 to 4 weeks in the rut period. The logistics are put in place and the fees people pay make sure that after I leave I at least have a profit. Its a lot of money to run it. The food and wine bill last time for 3 weeks touched nearly £2000.
But this is Outfitting, being a sporting agent is just selling it on, its not arranging and conducting the whole hunt, which Outfitting is.
90% of my clients are UK deer stalkers, the vast majority return to hunt with me, whether its a day or two or one outing. Of course the price is different for overseas clients as they require meeting and greating at the airport, transport throughout the days they are here, taking to the local pub at night for a meal, looking after throughout the day, licences etc. But I have had some that were not very good, and others that became firm friends. Much the same as UK stalkers, some good some bad. But in general I have been very lucky and am thankful for the continuing support I get from my clients.
There will always be the odd client who mucks you about, you know the one that cancels on you a day before they are due to go, with some lame excuse. I think as its their hobby, they think screwing a stalker about makes no difference. Not realising or caring that its a living, and that other guides may be involved and might have taken time off to help out. If its a genuine excuse most offer to pay for the missed booking. Occasionally I get one that wants the small booking deposit back (the last one was about 2 years back I think) and in that instance they can jog on. In most cases I hold it over and they re book another date.
You have to be fair with people, it goes a long way in business and people think more of you and will return.
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What attitude is that? I don’t pay for stalking. I don’t give a monkeys about the value of what you offer. I’m telling you that you’re clearly a terrible businessman. Whether you’re good at working with deer or not. It doesn’t matter if you’re driving about in a Range Rover or completely potless. If it’s not enough for you, give it up.
I don’t know if you pose these questions to better your social media presence as an influencer or because you’re genuinely in trouble but to me, you come across as completely feckless. I’m sure it doesn’t inspire confidence in the eyes of your clients. Are you hoping that UK stalkers read this moan and start voluntarily paying you more? I’m not sure I’d be booking stalking with someone who comes across as dubious as to whether he’ll have fuel in his motor when I get there.
If it’s a PR/marketing thing, you might want to revisit your strategies. Or, become a lorry driver. Just don’t buy your own lorry. I hear the uk transport contracts don’t pay the same as the European ones.
As someone who doesn't own his own rifle (due to domestic pressures!), I have no choice other than to pay for an "Outfitter" or "Sporting Agent" or ....."Stalker" complete with estate rifle.... I have no problem paying for the services of a stalker and continue to learn from each trip out - grassed deer or not. I went through a phase of not taking a shot for a few trips, the usual excuses - too far away/out of season/facing the wrong way etc - and ended up chuckling with the stalker that I was the only vegetarian stalker in the area. Did I ask for my money back? Nope...... It's like Salmon fishing, you pay for a day - if you're lucky you get a fish or two, but mostly not. A learning experience and so far I've only had an issue with one stalker who is no longer in the trade. For the rest of the time (blanks included), wouldn't miss it for the world - sure it would be nice to have my own rifle and ground, but you don't always get what you want in this world....
This is the service that people look for and are willing to pay for. Professionalism.
Trouble is, folk without any professionalism try to charge the same (or more) for a non professional service.
The only time I ever paid to be taken stalking was about ten/twelve years ago. I was taken out into a block of forestry which the guy had a syndicate on. He turned up in an old fiesta and I had to drive us into the wood. I didn’t see a single deer. No slots, runs, damaged trees or anything. He was clearly quite new to the game and didn’t have much of a clue either. He still charged me the full £80 for the outing. He didn’t charge me that because that was what he was worth. He charged me that because that’s what professional stalkers charge.
I’m not saying that you’re all like that, far from it, but the unprofessionals I the industry give your clients a bitter taste. It’s no wonder that they’re suspicious. I’m sure an Italian stalker who jazzed £10k on a week in Scotland would be a bad client too if he didn’t see a turd the whole time he’s here.
sikamalc
Administrator
Gentlemen lets calm it down a bit. All businesses go through a tough patch, and its been a hard patch for a lot of people over the past year. It is up to each of us to run and manage our affairs as we see fit. Its not for anyone else to judge, but to offer good free advice is better than to start an argument.
People need to look at their own circumstances as well, for instance I don't have my own land / had any luck getting permissions. I also have a growing family aka a baby that is less than a year old. because of this I don't have the time to get out for a night foxing and rabbiting on a regular basis in order to trade the service for stalking as it wouldn't be fair on Mrs Eddie although I could get away with the old bit of time here and there. As such im happy to pay for the opportunity to stalk over a few hours and I understand that not every stalk will be successful and this has been explained to me by the stalkers i've aimed to get out with from the offset so the expectation is set
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
The only time I’ve been disappointed bordering angry is when the guide has moved the goal posts from initial settings .
I bought a stag in Scotland years ago ,payed for one of the lads that works for me to shoot one as well .We weren’t after trophies but were told anything goes as the stags only came to that patch to rut . I was told it was a set fee and nothing else .
The lad I took shot 3 roe first day ,all free we were told .He’d shot his fair share of roe with me at home .Next day I was on the rifle and we got onto a stag that was roaring after a decent roam on the hills above the lodge .I was told by the guide some stalkers had waited a lifetime to shoot a stag roaring so how lucky was I .I was just about to pull the trigger when he leans in and states it will cost me 500 notes to shoot that 10 pointer or it goes on the lodge wall .I hadn’t driven 600 miles to see it skip away ,I was determined to have it out with him later .
What a time to tell a person that .I shot it ,we dragged the thing a good 2 miles with the guide and waited for him to fetch a quad .We tied the stag to the quad then I was instructed to drive the quad as he’d hurt his back .For someone with a bad back he skipped over the heather like a teenager and was gone leaving me and my mate to negotiate the bogs with the quad and stag .No problem with graft at all but I was confused why he left us behind .
Getting back to the lodge I brought the subject up and he confessed id shot it way over the March and he couldn’t get caught there ffs .We nearly came to blows I can tell you .He hadn’t been honest about the ground ,expectations or the fact his only held roe and red at night .
I payed the set fee for my stag and we left that evening on what should of been a weeks stalking ,no limits no trophy fees .Lad that works for me grabbed the head just as we were leaving much to the guides annoyance .
This was of course a one off ,the guide no longer advertises but just shows it happens .
This chap either thought we were rogues or poaching was the norm for him .
If he hadn’t asked for the 500 we’d of been none the wiser and probably shot a few more in our weeks stay on someone else’s ground ffs .
Telling the truth beforehand saves a lot of built up expectations on the day .Moving the goal posts seems to happen more frequently than is reported .Stating a certain type of beast is part of the agreed price yet being told it’s too good when ones glassed or it’s in an impossible extraction location .
Personally that would be the icing on the cake to extract such a beast even if packed out in pieces .Some guides are very set in their ways and won’t deviate to show results even when fitness and drive are in bucket loads from the client .
I bought a stag in Scotland years ago ,payed for one of the lads that works for me to shoot one as well .We weren’t after trophies but were told anything goes as the stags only came to that patch to rut . I was told it was a set fee and nothing else .
The lad I took shot 3 roe first day ,all free we were told .He’d shot his fair share of roe with me at home .Next day I was on the rifle and we got onto a stag that was roaring after a decent roam on the hills above the lodge .I was told by the guide some stalkers had waited a lifetime to shoot a stag roaring so how lucky was I .I was just about to pull the trigger when he leans in and states it will cost me 500 notes to shoot that 10 pointer or it goes on the lodge wall .I hadn’t driven 600 miles to see it skip away ,I was determined to have it out with him later .
What a time to tell a person that .I shot it ,we dragged the thing a good 2 miles with the guide and waited for him to fetch a quad .We tied the stag to the quad then I was instructed to drive the quad as he’d hurt his back .For someone with a bad back he skipped over the heather like a teenager and was gone leaving me and my mate to negotiate the bogs with the quad and stag .No problem with graft at all but I was confused why he left us behind .
Getting back to the lodge I brought the subject up and he confessed id shot it way over the March and he couldn’t get caught there ffs .We nearly came to blows I can tell you .He hadn’t been honest about the ground ,expectations or the fact his only held roe and red at night .
I payed the set fee for my stag and we left that evening on what should of been a weeks stalking ,no limits no trophy fees .Lad that works for me grabbed the head just as we were leaving much to the guides annoyance .
This was of course a one off ,the guide no longer advertises but just shows it happens .
This chap either thought we were rogues or poaching was the norm for him .
If he hadn’t asked for the 500 we’d of been none the wiser and probably shot a few more in our weeks stay on someone else’s ground ffs .
Telling the truth beforehand saves a lot of built up expectations on the day .Moving the goal posts seems to happen more frequently than is reported .Stating a certain type of beast is part of the agreed price yet being told it’s too good when ones glassed or it’s in an impossible extraction location .
Personally that would be the icing on the cake to extract such a beast even if packed out in pieces .Some guides are very set in their ways and won’t deviate to show results even when fitness and drive are in bucket loads from the client .
This maybe a business but its also way of life its not all aboutand money,, yes there are times that its hard to make ends
meet and like everyone else we have bills to pay, like Tulloch I drive an older truck but I get by, I manage to make a living I will never be well off never mind
rich.
There might be the odd client that grinds my gears but all in all I'm happy with my lot, thats why I'm still wirking at age
71 . Still think I have the best job in the world.
As I have said previously my clients are predominatley Europeans and due to Covid restrictions I have not worked since
the first of February 2020 .
Its not just living expenses but business expenses that still need to be paid although there has been nothing coming
Into the business and what little savings are all but gone
This is not a plea for sympathy nor a moan about my lot its simply to show that while working with overseas clients
in the main has been good for me , this is the downside that something out of the blue like the Covid pandemic can
bring everything to a sudden halt.
Never mind Boggy is still living the dream
meet and like everyone else we have bills to pay, like Tulloch I drive an older truck but I get by, I manage to make a living I will never be well off never mind
rich.
There might be the odd client that grinds my gears but all in all I'm happy with my lot, thats why I'm still wirking at age
71 . Still think I have the best job in the world.
As I have said previously my clients are predominatley Europeans and due to Covid restrictions I have not worked since
the first of February 2020 .
Its not just living expenses but business expenses that still need to be paid although there has been nothing coming
Into the business and what little savings are all but gone
This is not a plea for sympathy nor a moan about my lot its simply to show that while working with overseas clients
in the main has been good for me , this is the downside that something out of the blue like the Covid pandemic can
bring everything to a sudden halt.
Never mind Boggy is still living the dream
Have you taken advantage of the government grants and loans? It’s been a shocking time for self employed folk. Completely abandoned.
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
I’d say the gov has been more than helpful in providing support but that’s another topic altogether .The lads we use as subbies have all been paid x amount of furlough but this is the construction industry not countryside .
As long as everything’s up front on a day then blanks are just that and one would hope a return would solve that .
To the Op ,don’t know you but you seem to be blaming your misfortune on everybody else .We make our own decisions in life and if they don’t stack up financially then it’s time to move on .Been there done that and won’t be returning .Charge more and see if the clients are still there but with the increase comes even more expectations .Catch 22 .
As long as everything’s up front on a day then blanks are just that and one would hope a return would solve that .
To the Op ,don’t know you but you seem to be blaming your misfortune on everybody else .We make our own decisions in life and if they don’t stack up financially then it’s time to move on .Been there done that and won’t be returning .Charge more and see if the clients are still there but with the increase comes even more expectations .Catch 22 .
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Not eligible as I am past retiring age and in receipt of the Government pension.
To try to put something positive on here...
I, for one, am grateful that outfitters (or whatever we wish to call them) are willing to offer stalking at a rate of about £30 to £50 per hour. Is that cheap? Depends on what you view as 'cheap', £90-£150 for a 3 hour stalk is affordable to most who have disposable income. No, you wouldn't want to throw it away but it's more than possible. I don't think it's that much to spend that a month on a hobby. Many are far more expensive (side note, I never cease to be amazed at the people who own horses, despite not being in highly paid jobs).
On the other hand, that isn't enough money that anyone charging it is going to get rich quickly. I imagine (as people charge it) that it can cover overheads and put something in the pocket. However, I tend to think that the people taking me out are doing it, at least in part, because they enjoy stalking and want to share the experience and I'm grateful that people will do this and try to behave as though they are doing me a favour.
I cannot/would not (take your pick) pay £1,000 to shoot a buck. that Americans and Europeans will is undoubtedly a good thing, as I imagine it allows the outfitter to make a bit more money on those stalks to make up for the fact that I (and other like me) will be asking for cull animals or females.
Despite this, I've never encountered hostility from an outfitter on telling them that I don't want a trophy (I'm up front about that from the start), so they know they are only getting the minimum fee and maybe a tip. Instead, I always found they try as hard as they can to find a beast of that sort.
If no beast shows? Well, so long as I am happy there are beasts around then that's the game. If I just wanted to kill things I'd get job as a slaughterman. If only trophies show? That shows there are beats there, it's just bad luck that they aren't the type I want to shoot.
My advice to anyone going on a paid stalk? Try to learn from it, enjoy being out and remember that the outfitter is taking you out in part to share an experience, so act accordingly. If you have an attitude that you're paying so you're in charge, won't help with the extraction etc, expect to be labelled an a***hole and find that the diary is all booked up in future.
I, for one, am grateful that outfitters (or whatever we wish to call them) are willing to offer stalking at a rate of about £30 to £50 per hour. Is that cheap? Depends on what you view as 'cheap', £90-£150 for a 3 hour stalk is affordable to most who have disposable income. No, you wouldn't want to throw it away but it's more than possible. I don't think it's that much to spend that a month on a hobby. Many are far more expensive (side note, I never cease to be amazed at the people who own horses, despite not being in highly paid jobs).
On the other hand, that isn't enough money that anyone charging it is going to get rich quickly. I imagine (as people charge it) that it can cover overheads and put something in the pocket. However, I tend to think that the people taking me out are doing it, at least in part, because they enjoy stalking and want to share the experience and I'm grateful that people will do this and try to behave as though they are doing me a favour.
I cannot/would not (take your pick) pay £1,000 to shoot a buck. that Americans and Europeans will is undoubtedly a good thing, as I imagine it allows the outfitter to make a bit more money on those stalks to make up for the fact that I (and other like me) will be asking for cull animals or females.
Despite this, I've never encountered hostility from an outfitter on telling them that I don't want a trophy (I'm up front about that from the start), so they know they are only getting the minimum fee and maybe a tip. Instead, I always found they try as hard as they can to find a beast of that sort.
If no beast shows? Well, so long as I am happy there are beasts around then that's the game. If I just wanted to kill things I'd get job as a slaughterman. If only trophies show? That shows there are beats there, it's just bad luck that they aren't the type I want to shoot.
My advice to anyone going on a paid stalk? Try to learn from it, enjoy being out and remember that the outfitter is taking you out in part to share an experience, so act accordingly. If you have an attitude that you're paying so you're in charge, won't help with the extraction etc, expect to be labelled an a***hole and find that the diary is all booked up in future.
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