Comparing Terminal Performance of Non-lead/Copper Bullets on UK Deer

[User00040]

Hi all,

Since some are facing the mandatory use of copper/non-lead bullets on deer, I thought a thread inspired by Nathan Foster's site (Terminal Ballistics Research,click on wound research tab) would be of use to stalkers who are concerned about deer welfare, efficient carcass recovery and meat damage (let's not forget, an unrecoverable animal is 100% meat loss).

The aim is to examine and compare the terminal performance of commercially available copper bullets, whether they be in the form of factory ammunition or handloads.

The usefulness of this thread would be as a reference for stalkers who want to pick the right bullet for their chosen calibre, seeing how it performs on different deer species and sizes, and at different angles and distances.

For those who wish to contribute:

Please copy the and complete table below, then upload the SD maximum of five clear photographs showing the entry and exit wounds (inside the chest cavity is best), along with damage to internal organs which reflect the performance of the bullet. A short paragraph or two giving additional information such as deer reaction to shot may be helpful.

To ensure your privacy and security, it is a good idea to remove EXIF data from pictures(see here: How to Scrub GPS Data from Your Photos). On an Android phone this is a simple process:



Due to the emphasis on bullet performance (expansion/fragmentation), please show examples of where the cardiovascular system (lungs/heart) or bone structure (shoulders and spine) have been damaged by the bullet impact. Please omit head-shots and poor placement (gut shots and haunch,lower leg, etc.) as whilst these shots can and do happen in field conditions, it is not a fair reflection of bullet performance.

Shot placement reference:

I hope the admin team find this to be acceptable.

Table is in the following post to ensure easy use via copy/paste.

 

[User00040]

Deer Species:

Sex:

Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed):

Rifle Calibre/Chambering:

Ammunition Type: Factory/Handloads

Bullet manufacturer:

Bullet model:

Bullet weight:

Muzzle Velocity (if known):

Barrel Length:

Barrel Twist rate (if known):

Shot distance: (meters/yards) (ranged/estimated)

Shot placement:

Distance travelled:

Tracking dog required? (Yes/No)

Comments:

 

[User00040]

Lung entry:

Both lungs pierced by bullet:


Lung exit:

Exit wound:


Deer Species: Roe

Sex: Male

Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed): 12kg

Rifle Calibre/Chambering: .270 Winchester

Ammunition Type: Factory- Sako Powerhead II

Bullet manufacturer: Barnes

Bullet model: TTSX

Bullet weight: 110 grains

Muzzle Velocity (if known): 3,180 fps

Barrel Length: 20 inches

Barrel Twist rate (if known): 1-10"

Shot distance: 310 meters,ranged

Shot placement: Centre of chest, Broadside

Distance travelled: 25 meters

Tracking dog required? Yes

Comments: Smaller buck taken broadside, shot placement in centre of chest due to front shoulder area being obscured slightly by foliage. Deer was feeding when shot was taken. Good hit confirmed due to deer behaviour after shot, strong impact sound, head dipped down and not running as normal. Still made it into heavy cover a few meters away. Follow up time to shot site was between 5-10 minutes due to terrain. No visible blood trail at shot site, thankfully tracking dog was on hand and recovery was made. It appeared that the deer had expired after running about 20 meters or so in thick cover. Blood was visible where deer had expired and bleeding occurred from exit wound. Ribs were struck on entry and exit, both lungs pierced. This is typical performance of this bullet (Barnes TTSX .277 110 grain) as loaded in Sako Powerhead II used at such distances (250-330m).

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I cannot contribute with quite the same template with pictures etc, however this is a log of deer shot over the previous few months by myself and a few others.
All were handloads, I am classing 0M as good run distance, 1-10 as moderate and 10M+ as high run distance. As can be seen in the data the highest distance run was 27M over 53 deer.
This is an ongoing project for myself to keep updating and building a database of handloaded options and their real world performance.




Here is the findings of various bullets in a range of calibres so far, the 6.5x47L and the .243 as yet do not have anywhere near enough data to build an average. The .300 WSM is also low on data.
This does however as more data is added start to show us trends in what will work well and may help people develop loads in their calibre that will work effectively by choosing a bullet known to perform.

I would be interested to also put together a lead bullet version which would allow for a reference comparison, however as I do not shoot any lead bullets at deer any more I would need others to contribute the data.

If anyone wants to contribute to the data then please PM me, given more entries a better picture will be built as to how they perform.

This is simply raw data at this point and I am not pulling any conclusions, merely showing what is being put together. I am aware the data will need sifting into shot placement etc to do final averages etc.



Hope this is of interest to somebody!

Ben

 

[Ronin]

Well done Ben

 

[bigyin]

.25-06
100 gn Barnes ttsx 3350 ft/sec
233 yards
Dropped to shot
Quartering towards slightly down hill

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Tests have been done extensively by Forestry England in volumes you can only hope to see a of from a forum poll.
Why not ask them for the data under FOI

huge amount of useful data from a small number of actual collectors/rangers

 

[Heym SR20]

Over the last three years I have shot ten Roe deer with 7mm Fox bullets and RWS HIT bullets. All have either dropped on the spot or run less than ten yards. One did fall off a 50ft cliff and then rolled 20 yards.

I did shoot one small Roe Buck with 80gn 243. It dropped to the shot and rolled out of sight. It was from the top of the cliff and it takes 15 or so minutes to get down to the shot sight even though range is less than 100m. Could not find it in the dark. Following morning found drag trail, large pool of blood, bits of fur and not much else. I can only thing the badgers knicked it.

I have also shot several foxes, one wild boar (100kg dead weight) and a Red Stag. Foxes all dead on spot, boar made it 30 yards into wood. Stag (with RWS HIT in 7mm) just stood at the shot stiff legged and started swaying. Had misjudged the wind and bullet had gone behind shoulder - it was going down but shot it on shoulder and it dropped on the spot.

 

[Sharpie]

Tests have been done extensively by Forestry England in volumes you can only hope to see a of from a forum poll.
Why not ask them for the data under FOI

huge amount of useful data from a small number of actual collectors/rangers

Ed, why don't you ask them for the data, under FOI, suitably redacted. (I presume that you already have it ?). Then post it here for all to see.

Should counter a lot of whataboutery. Please do this. If not why not ?

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

@Sharpie @Edinburgh Rifles I have just requested the data under a FOI request and will compile and publish them here when I receive them. Should be interesting and provide a good amount of data to draw a much better picture from with regards to factory ammunitions performance.

Ben

 

[andyk]

I'm not yet able to contribute to this, but I think it a useful thread.

I take your point Ed but I would be interested to hear the view from folk on here, in particular the ones who aren't keen on using copper. Maybe I'm a cynic, but my fear with any research carried out by a public body such as FC (or whatever they are currently called) is that there will have been a political decision taken to not use lead. Thereafter, any research will be intended to justify that decision.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

I'm not yet able to contribute to this, but I think it a useful thread.

I take your point Ed but I would be interested to hear the view from folk on here, in particular the ones who aren't keen on using copper. Maybe I'm a cynic, but my fear with any research carried out by a public body such as FC (or whatever they are currently called) is that there will have been a political decision taken to not use lead. Thereafter, any research will be intended to justify that decision.

they test all of them
lead and copper
they have to

as with all public sector bodies the decision to use one brand or another needs to be backed up with data

 

[CarlW]

On this subject, I trust the people on this forum (the ordinary guys trying copper, rather than the zealots anyhow) more than I trust any public body which - as @andyk says - generally have an agenda.

I think this is a valuable and useful thread.

One thing that struck me, visually, is that @brave echo niner's chart shows an even distribution of red (rather than a concentration at one end). At those distances, distance itself seems to have no influence. Whether performance then falls off a cliff, I have no idea, but look forward to seeing the chart grow.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

One thing that struck me, visually, is that @brave echo niner's chart shows an even distribution of red (rather than a concentration at one end). At those distances, distance itself seems to have no influence. Whether performance then falls off a cliff, I have no idea, but look forward to seeing the chart grow.

I am also starting to apply another column of estimated terminal velocity based on an Applied Ballistics, this may make it more uniform between the calibre, as obviously a .308 may be slower at 200m than a .300 WSM at 350m.

If people are interested here is a view only copy which will auto update as data is added.

Copper Bullets (Handload) Raw Data.xlsx

1drv.ms

Ben

 

[CarlW]

I am also starting to apply another column of estimated terminal velocity based on an Applied Ballistics, this may make it more uniform between the calibre, as obviously a .308 may be slower at 200m than a .300 WSM at 350m.

If people are interested here is a view only copy which will auto update as data is added.

Copper Bullets (Handload) Raw Data.xlsx

1drv.ms

Ben

That is great. Thank you.

 

[User00040]

Entry:


Exit:






Deer Species: Roe

Sex: Male

Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed): 16.5 kg

Rifle Calibre/Chambering: .270 W

Ammunition Type: Factory

Bullet manufacturer: Barnes

Bullet model: TTSX

Bullet weight: 110 grain

Muzzle Velocity (if known): 3,180 fps

Barrel Length: 20 inches

Barrel Twist rate (if known): 1-10"

Shot distance: 120 meters, estimated

Shot placement: Downhill raking shot, deer feeding away from firing point, facing 1.30/ 2 o'clock, shot taken into right hand side chest to rake into offside shoulder

Distance travelled: 0

Tracking dog required? No

Comments: Bullet performed as expected, typical bang-flop/DRT with this type of shot placement at this distance (under 200 meters)

Nothing much to add, deer presented well despite reasonable downhill angle and terrain sloping away. Shot placement was chosen to provide lowest likelyhood of a runner which would make recovery difficult. Animal expired instantly with plenty of blood at the shot site.

 

[User00040]

Deer Species: Roe

Sex: Male

Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed): 15.5 kg

Rifle Calibre/Chambering: .270 W

Ammunition Type: Factory

Bullet manufacturer: Barnes

Bullet model: TTSX

Bullet weight: 110 grain

Muzzle Velocity (if known): 3,180 fps

Barrel Length: 20 inches

Barrel Twist rate (if known): 1-10"

Shot distance: 25 meters, estimated

Shot placement: Quick offhand shot required, buck and I saw each other at the same time, walking parallel almost after coming out from behind a bush above me. He hopped on a little but turned round out of curiosity, nearly broadside, and that was the end of him. Only had about 3 seconds or so between seeing and shooting him so not much time for good placement. A bit lower than I would like but both shoulders pinned. He managed to roll down the hill after putting on an impressive display of acrobatics after the shot.

Distance travelled: 5 meters

Tracking dog required? No

Comments: Bullet performed as expected, both shoulders broken, good expansion into offside lung. 3.5cm bone fragment recovered from chest cavity.

 

[NullMac]

On this subject, I trust the people on this forum (the ordinary guys trying copper, rather than the zealots anyhow) more than I trust any public body which - as @andyk says - generally have an agenda.

Well maybe yes, maybe no.

What they have though is a budget and hopefully more data than an individual geezer. So you can draw your own conclusions from their data.

This type of low volume informal analysis is helpful in that we are all wondering what happens with copper, and this gives some idea but it is inevitably limited. The wound patterns are clear. Equally they kill at 'normal' ranges. Not really a surprise.

We need more data to see how they perform at all ranges, what is the realistically max effective range of say the 130gr TTSX out of a 308 or whatever? What happens when we don't put it in position A ? Does a 243 80gr bullet really cut it on the larger deer species? It would be interesting to see a wounding survey, but I suspect one does not exist?

The odd story from a couple of stalkers helps but may not be truly representative or uncover the limits.

 

[User00040]

This type of low volume informal analysis is helpful in that we are all wondering what happens with copper, and this gives some idea but it is inevitably limited. The wound patterns are clear. Equally they kill at 'normal' ranges. Not really a surprise.

We need more data to see how they perform at all ranges, what is the realistically max effective range of say the 130gr TTSX out of a 308 or whatever? What happens when we don't put it in position A ? Does a 243 80gr bullet really cut it on the larger deer species? It would be interesting to see a wounding survey, but I suspect one does not exist?

The odd story from a couple of stalkers helps but may not be truly representative or uncover the limits.

Yes, we really do need more input from those using different calibers/chamberings in the form of pictorial evidence of deer being shot.

Is this the Stalking Directory? More like the Talking Directory...

 

[CarlW]

Well maybe yes, maybe no.

What they have though is a budget and hopefully more data than an individual geezer. So you can draw your own conclusions from their data.

This type of low volume informal analysis is helpful in that we are all wondering what happens with copper, and this gives some idea but it is inevitably limited. The wound patterns are clear. Equally they kill at 'normal' ranges. Not really a surprise.

We need more data to see how they perform at all ranges, what is the realistically max effective range of say the 130gr TTSX out of a 308 or whatever? What happens when we don't put it in position A ? Does a 243 80gr bullet really cut it on the larger deer species? It would be interesting to see a wounding survey, but I suspect one does not exist?

The odd story from a couple of stalkers helps but may not be truly representative or uncover the limits.

Yes. Prior to the internet, I think I would have agreed with you. However, nowadays, that medium does level the science playing field somewhat. Large, albeit messy, datasets can be generated by interest-groups such as ourselves if the will is there. I think well done, @caberslash for giving it a go.