Binos - Olden but Golden vs New School tech

[Ben23]

Morning all,

This might get a little long winded, and I am in no rush to pull the trigger on anything (need to do some saving and selling!), but I am thinking about getting some higher grade glass and am trying to work out the best solution for me. Budget is not unlimited, and would certainly not be any higher than say £800, but within that range there are some really interesting choice (especially when considering used).

I'm looking for 10x ideally, and around 40-43mm objective, although quality is more important than mag really - just to give some context.

I know binos have been done to death, so apologies, but it would really help me out to hear opinions etc., especially as a lot of these models are before my time

Within my price range I have found Leicas, Zeiss, Swaros, etc., but of older designs and models. I'm even quite taken with the old school looking Swaro 10x40 porro designs, which sound like they'd be amazing in low light too!

To that extent, I'm wondering whether these sorts of bins (5-800£, used, likely 2 decades old) are any better or worse than a brand new pair of modern bins for around that price, or even less? I haven't been using binos for long enough to know if the 'advances' in recent years are all the marketing man trying to take my cash, or whether they are actually substantial and I'm better off with a modern cheaper pair than an older expensive pair with a nice badge?

I'm looking for a pair to set me up for 'life', /many many years of stalking to come. So falling into the 'buy nice, cry once' camp, and keeping them as my theoretical 'forever' bins.

Here are some models to give a general idea of what I've seen:
Swaro SLC
Swaro Habicht 10x40 (porro)
Second hand cameras, camera part exchange, digital cameras UK, used cameras, photographic shops, England (some good looking Leica on there)
Binoculars - Secondhand (some good looking Swaro and Leica)

So for those of you who have been using binos properly for the last 20+ years perhaps, or who have been using both older and newer binos, what are your thoughts and experiences?

Cheers!

 

[User00026]

Zeiss bgat 7x42 - best binos ever made and still better than anything in production today. You can find them around £500 and you will never buy another pair

 

[Ben23]

Zeiss bgat 7x42 - best binos ever made and still better than anything in production today. You can find them around £500 and you will never buy another pair

Bold claims! They also do it in 10x, which I have found in stock near me at a second hand place for 450, so that could be worth a look?

I think I'd like 10x, as my current issue is that I'm finding it tricky to determine minute details (being roe buck season) of antler quality etc. but whether that's my current bins being 8x, or whether it's because they're £150 ('cheap') bins, I'm not sure. Quality of image versus magnification help? Hard to say. Most of my stalking is open fields etc. for roe, so can be useful to be 'zoomed in'.

 

[User00026]

It’s the quality of your current ones being the issue I suspect.
I wouldn’t go 10x..have tried many, and the high mag increases shaking to the point where the higher Magnification becomes a negative effect unless you have a very sturdy platform underneath.

Every time I’ve had 10x binos out, I regret it, and always go back to 7 or 8x.

10x is for birdwatching, 7/8x for stalking

some will disagree, they’re wrong.

 

[Ben23]

(If it helps/changes things, I always stalk with quad sticks, and always use them as a platform for my binos when glassing)

edit: (and my current binos are Helios Mistral WP6 8x42 ED)

 

[User00040]

Swarovski EL 10x42 (the older Swarovision ones) is my choice, or Vortex if on a budget. Leica is top glass but only if you have smaller hands and head (seriously!).

You'll see many weird and wonderful choices among hobbyists but those who use them on a daily basis usually opt for the above, and for good reason.

Would not touch new Ziess, and good luck getting the older stuff serviced for free.

 

[User00026]

Swarovski EL 10x42 (the older Swarovision ones) is my choice, or Vortex if on a budget. Leica is top glass but only if you have smaller hands and head (seriously!).

You'll see many weird and wonderful choices among hobbyists but those who use them on a daily basis usually opt for the above, and for good reason.

Would not touch new Ziess, and good luck getting the older stuff serviced for free.

Recently had bgats serviced. Full service, not a penny in charges, not even shipping

 

[willie_gunn]

Personally I would recommend going with 8x magnification, given most of the distances at which you'll be spying deer down South. 10x is fine off a stable platform, but not so good freehand if you've had your daily coffee on the way to stalking!

I have a pair of the first gen Swaro 8.5x42 EL's and an older pair of Leica 8x42 Trinovid BN's. TBH there is little to choose between them.

Just to provide an alternative opinion to @caberslash, I have large hands and a large head and find the Leica's to be perfectly fine!

If you go for the Zeiss BGA's, try to find a pair with both T* and P* designation - the T* signifies multi-layer coating and the P* signifies phase correction coatings. A pair with that designation will be both better and newer than a pair without.

As well as the shops you've already looked at, check out Cley Spy:

Used Equipment | Buy Online at CleySpy

CleySpy only stock the best quality Used Equipment, all available with a wide range of accessories - buy online at fantastic prices

www.cleyspy.co.uk

Also be sure to give Macleod's of Tain a call - they are a Trade Member here and offer a fantastic service on both new and used optics.

R. Macleod & Son - The Scottish Firearm & Optical Dealer

Here at R. Macleod & Son, we stock the best Firearm & optical equipment & Clothing. Visit our website to browse our wide range.

rmacleod.co.uk

If I was in the market for another pair of binos I would personally go for a pair of Swaro's, either SLC's or EL's. The Swarovski service really is second to none.

 

[Ben23]

Personally I would recommend going with 8x magnification, given most of the distances at which you'll be spying deer down South. 10x is fine off a stable platform, but not so good freehand if you've had your daily coffee on the way to stalking!

I have a pair of the first gen Swaro 8.5x42 EL's and an older pair of Leica 8x42 Trinovid BN's. TBH there is little to choose between them.

Just to provide an alternative opinion to @caberslash, I have large hands and a large head and find the Leica's to be perfectly fine!

If you go for the Zeiss BGA's, try to find a pair with both T* and P* designation - the T* signifies multi-layer coating and the P* signifies phase correction coatings. A pair with that designation will be both better and newer than a pair without.

As well as the shops you've already looked at, check out Cley Spy:

Used Equipment | Buy Online at CleySpy

CleySpy only stock the best quality Used Equipment, all available with a wide range of accessories - buy online at fantastic prices

www.cleyspy.co.uk

Also be sure to give Macleod's of Tain a call - they are a Trade Member here and offer a fantastic service on both new and used optics.

R. Macleod & Son - The Scottish Firearm & Optical Dealer

Here at R. Macleod & Son, we stock the best Firearm & optical equipment & Clothing. Visit our website to browse our wide range.

rmacleod.co.uk

If I was in the market for another pair of binos I would personally go for a pair of Swaro's, either SLC's or EL's. The Swarovski service really is second to none.

Thanks a lot! Looks like Macleod's have a set of 'SWAROVSKI SLC 10X42 WB' for £650, which is an interesting prospect! Although I'm rather taken by the (apparent) amazing light transmission by the Swaro porros! E.g. the 10x40W GA

Just need to sell some rifles and scopes and things now

 

[muddy42]

I alternate between 8x minox and old 10x leicas . 8x is for woodland stalking. I use 10x either on the hill or for summer roe stalking (when antler identification is more important). Really not much in it, 10x is fine supported on sticks which I will carry anyway in woodland.

My advice would be to think ahead to if you will buy a thermal? Having a thermal can affect your bino choice in two ways:
- I suspect I'll use 10x more now I have a thermal spotter, which can pan very well.
- They say the benefit of expensive binos is at first light. This is when the thermal is hugely helpful. Could one therefore make do with mid range binos??

Some people only stalk with thermal spotters in woodland.

 

[willie_gunn]

Thanks a lot! Looks like Macleod's have a set of 'SWAROVSKI SLC 10X42 WB' for £650, which is an interesting prospect! Although I'm rather taken by the (apparent) amazing light transmission by the Swaro porros! E.g. the 10x40W GA

Just need to sell some rifles and scopes and things now

Those SLC's look very nice.

Aesthetics and ergonomics are very much a personal choice, but having used both I personally would opt for roof prisms over porro prisms. I find them less bulky (though not necessarily lighter) and easier to use.

 

[Ben23]

I alternate between 8x minox and old 10x leicas . 8x is for woodland stalking. I use 10x either on the hill or for summer roe stalking (when antler identification is more important). Really not much in it, 10x is fine supported on sticks which I will carry anyway in woodland.

My advice would be to think ahead to if you will buy a thermal? Having a thermal can affect your bino choice in two ways:
- I suspect I'll use 10x more now I have a thermal spotter, which can pan very well.
- They say the benefit of expensive binos is at first light. This is when the thermal is hugely helpful. Could one therefore make do with mid range binos??

Some people only stalk with thermal spotters in woodland.

No, I don’t think I’ll go for a thermal, I like to be as analogue as possible. But very good points and very worth considering! Thanks

 

[JockStalk]

When you narrow it down, look through your preferred shortlist. Mk1 eyeballs are highly variable in production, you’ll know what suits your pair best.
Consider vortex razor at your price range, not many about but great glass and bombproof warranty.

 

[Alantoo]

You obviously won't go wrong with any of the high end binoculars from a quality or functional point of view...you might pay a bit too much for a second hand pair...but that's par for the course, sods' law an ad. for a less expensive better model turns up just after you have paid the deposit!

The critical thing with optics as far as I am concerned is not brand loyalty, or paying a premium up front for Swarovksi's super after sale customer service.

The really important thing is whether they do the job well for you personally...so they feel good in hand, they suit your eyes, they suit your sense of self!

Far better to go and look through some and make side by side comparisons, rather than relying purely on specifications or other peoples' recommendations.

I prefer Porro prisms for a number of reasons...the wider spaced objective tubes give an enhanced 3D image and are better suited to my hand size, and given their superior/simpler light path design you get a lot more bang for your buck over the current fashion for roof prism designs. Just look for gas filled models which are rarer with Porros.

I went to places like London Camera exchange in Bristol and Clifton Cameras in Dursley and compared everything they had...don't forget to look into a shadowy area to see what details they can resolve which will give you a better idea of first and last light performance...all binoculars look good in strong sunshine.

Alan

P.S. I found a good model for me 20 years ago before I started stalking, and they have not been wanting. They were mid-low-range at the time and are no longer made...but I have managed to pick up a few second hand pairs for two reasons...one it is insurance if I drop a pair...but the most important is that I have a pair in all three vehicles and by an upstairs and downstairs window so I am never far from one should something turn up. And I never arrive at the stalking ground with out them!!

 

[Ben23]

You obviously won't go wrong with any of the high end binoculars from a quality or functional point of view...you might pay a bit too much for a second hand pair...but that's par for the course, sods' law an ad. for a less expensive better model turns up just after you have paid the deposit!

The critical thing with optics as far as I am concerned is not brand loyalty, or paying a premium up front for Swarovksi's super after sale customer service.

The really important thing is whether they do the job well for you personally...so they feel good in hand, they suit your eyes, they suit your sense of self!

Far better to go and look through some and make side by side comparisons, rather than relying purely on specifications or other peoples' recommendations.

I prefer Porro prisms for a number of reasons...the wider spaced objective tubes give an enhanced 3D image and are better suited to my hand size, and given their superior/simpler light path design you get a lot more bang for your buck over the current fashion for roof prism designs. Just look for gas filled models which are rarer with Porros.

I went to places like London Camera exchange in Bristol and Clifton Cameras in Dursley and compared everything they had...don't forget to look into a shadowy area to see what details they can resolve which will give you a better idea of first and last light performance...all binoculars look good in strong sunshine.

Alan

Thanks Alan! Very good points raised. Will take a trip to Ace Optics and LCE in Bath and have a look through. Shame it's so sunny so late at the moment... Would be good if I could borrow a pair overnight and take them for a wander at dusk!

 

[User00040]

Recently had bgats serviced. Full service, not a penny in charges, not even shipping

Those are out of the ark... this pair sits in the car in case someone does not have any binos. Wouldn't want to use them myself!

 

[Alantoo]

Thanks Alan! Very good points raised. Will take a trip to Ace Optics and LCE in Bath and have a look through. Shame it's so sunny so late at the moment... Would be good if I could borrow a pair overnight and take them for a wander at dusk!

You are very welcome to come and look through the variations of my porros if you happen to travel up this way one day...near Stroud.

They are all the same Model/BAK4 Prism with different objectives. The vehicles / stalking ones are all in 8x42 and the original 10x50 are similar in use...but I managed to buy a pair of new old stock in 7x50 which have a narrower angle of view but a much greater depth of field....

Alan

 

[willie_gunn]

Those are out of the ark... this pair sits in the car in case someone does not have any binos. Wouldn't want to use them myself!View attachment 212572

I have a couple of pairs of Optolyth's that live in my stalking box in the car for exactly the same reason.

If a client turns up without binoculars, or who perhaps has brought along a partner but only one pair of binos, it is really useful to have a spare pair available to loan out for the duration. Would only use them myself in extremis!

 

[Alantoo]

Wouldn't want to use them myself!

Would only use them myself in extremis!

You two remind me of the Douglas Adams' description of the bumper sticker on the back of the road hog's Porsche..."My other car is also a Porsche!"



Alan

 

[SDC7x57]

Don't forget the basics about the human eye vs binos (I was reminded talking to a consultant eye specialist last week when discussing removal of my cataracts!!). He asked what binos I used. I was a bit surprised and asked why. He told me that my pupil diameter was (still...) 6.1mm, so my (ancient) Swaro SL 7x50s, and the (almost as old..) Leica 8x50 BAs were fine and would pass more light than my eyes would effectively register. (7 x 6.1 = 42.2, and 8 x 6.1 = 48.8)

I'd still go for a 7 or 8 magnification if I was starting all over again - usually a wider field of view, easier to keep steady.

So, from an old fart's point of view, you have a good budget and I would suggest you have a lot of options on the s/h market to get quality glass (Swaro, Leica, [older] Zeiss) with excellent light passing ability. Good luck!