Does this look like lung worm folks? If so, do I need to take any particular precautions? Behaviour and the rest of the carcass/chest cavity all fine. Nothing will eat the lungs but dogs usually get the liver etc. Thanks.
Lung Worm?
- Thread starter JMH123
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paulbshooting
Well-Known Member
Was the beast chest shot? If all lymph nodes were fine and nothing of concern then cut into lungs and check for the worms as you should see large worms. Small worms can cause pneumonia but can't see that in your pics. Carcass is fine. Discard or pop if freezer for a week before feeding to dog if nothing found but concerned.
Looks like the sort of lesion one finds with lungworm.
If it is from a high TB area, you may wish to be more cautious...
If it is from a high TB area, you may wish to be more cautious...
It was chest shot (why do you ask?). No worms apparent but will check again. Thanks.
North Yorkshire (near Scarborough) which is not known for TB- to my knowledge at least(?)
paulbshooting
Well-Known Member
Could just be trauma to lungs if chest shot hence the question. On the TB theme on the thread, you would / should have noticed injected nymph glands and or internal abscesses and I'm told from a fellow stalker who had a deer with confirmed TB a very usual smell to the carcass. I am no expert just trying to help.
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Very distinct odour to Tb .Rank yellowing of organs and lacklustre look to the beast in general .Shot a few roe that were confirmed tb .Having seen and had the confirmation I’ll not be opening up any more suspected of this malady .
The probably lungworm lesions are the greyish lumps on the edge of the lung. Trauma from the shot will be either obvious tearing, or blood splashing.
Not that I am aware of. But as a primary respiratory pathogen, I won't be testing the theory!
spannulman
Well-Known Member
I shot a weak buck with one single tine antler and a stumpy thing on the other side. One foot ( the opposite to the stumpy antler) had the toes crossed over ie one curled up and the other down so it was like a crossbills beak. There lymph’s seemed ok but it had the same brown patches on the lungs. He was small but had plenty of meat on him- he wasn’t wasted.
i too worried re TB, went through the best practice books and then to defra and a lot of veterinary sites and came the the conclusion it was lung worm. Apparently it is the major cause of death in roe, they have to die of something I suppose. Usually found where the numbers are higher, which makes sense. But it doesn’t affect the eating, even if it is unpleasant to think about. It has a similar name to the grouse worm they get too. my only precaution was this meat was not given away, I kept it for myself and cooked it well and have had no ill effects.
But it’s the first one I’ve seen in 7 years on this ground and if the beast was in poor condition or wasted I would have probably discarded it just in case. but he seemed to be quick chunky despite his short stature and weak head.
i‘d go ahead and eat up, if you haven’t already.
i too worried re TB, went through the best practice books and then to defra and a lot of veterinary sites and came the the conclusion it was lung worm. Apparently it is the major cause of death in roe, they have to die of something I suppose. Usually found where the numbers are higher, which makes sense. But it doesn’t affect the eating, even if it is unpleasant to think about. It has a similar name to the grouse worm they get too. my only precaution was this meat was not given away, I kept it for myself and cooked it well and have had no ill effects.
But it’s the first one I’ve seen in 7 years on this ground and if the beast was in poor condition or wasted I would have probably discarded it just in case. but he seemed to be quick chunky despite his short stature and weak head.
i‘d go ahead and eat up, if you haven’t already.
As Mr Buchan politely said, there is no distinct odour to carcasses with TB that he is aware of.
It is just plainly incorrect to suggest there is, and it is necessary to point this out. Otherwise others will take this on board and before long infected carcasses will be passed as fit to eat because they ‘don’t smell of TB’.
Similarly, the ‘rank yellowing of organs’ is also not a sign of TB. One should be looking for lesions - abscesses, pus - in the lymph nodes of the head and respiratory system, the primary route of infection, as well as elsewhere like the mesenteric lymph nodes.
Of course, a carcass infected with TB may have other unrelated ailments, such as hydronephrosis, a blockage in the kidney tracts or a pyelonephritis, an infection in the kidney tracts. These can cause a strong smell of ammonia in severe cases.
Yellowing organs could be caused by jaundice, but again not TB related.
I'm not sure how you will suspect TB without opening up a carcass to find lesions.
Lungworms vary in size, some are easily visible like Dictyocaulus viviparous. Lungworm is not a debilitating issue for deer unless heavily infected, which may then cause secondary infections, i.e. pneumonia, which can become septic, dragging the general health of the deer down to a level where the animal is emaciated, especially in severe weather, then unfit to eat if shot or perhaps found dead.
Lightly infected lungs just need to be rejected, all else is fit to enter the food chain.
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
If you say so sir .
Whether the smell ,yellowing is secondary or not ,it was present in both the conformed cases I’ve shot from our area .Both roe were looking out of sorts ,poor coat and wasted .Eyes glazed .On seeing this again I shall cull but not open as i said .The need to open a definite unfit beast fails me when there is a distinct chance of contamination not only to the man but to the broader section of wildlife .TB as I understand is zoonotic is it not so why mess about with that when incineration is at hand .
The lay stalker is not a veterinarian ,does not need to be but on recognition of something not right we have to make a judgement as to best practice .That for me is incinerate without worrying too much about causes unless widespread ,Deer suffer with maladies ,excepted but I’m not too interested in prolonging an inquest having seen the fuss made previous .Cull ,incinerate .
Whether the smell ,yellowing is secondary or not ,it was present in both the conformed cases I’ve shot from our area .Both roe were looking out of sorts ,poor coat and wasted .Eyes glazed .On seeing this again I shall cull but not open as i said .The need to open a definite unfit beast fails me when there is a distinct chance of contamination not only to the man but to the broader section of wildlife .TB as I understand is zoonotic is it not so why mess about with that when incineration is at hand .
The lay stalker is not a veterinarian ,does not need to be but on recognition of something not right we have to make a judgement as to best practice .That for me is incinerate without worrying too much about causes unless widespread ,Deer suffer with maladies ,excepted but I’m not too interested in prolonging an inquest having seen the fuss made previous .Cull ,incinerate .
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But if you suspect TB the correct course is cull, report and have tested is it not?If you say so sir .
Whether the smell ,yellowing is secondary or not ,it was present in both the conformed cases I’ve shot from our area .Both roe were looking out of sorts ,poor coat and wasted .Eyes glazed .On seeing this again I shall cull but not open as i said .The need to open a definite unfit beast fails me when there is a distinct chance of contamination not only to the man but to the broader section of wildlife .TB as I understand is zoonotic is it not so why mess about with that when incineration is at hand .
The lay stalker is not a veterinarian ,does not need to be but on recognition of something not right we have to make a judgement as to best practice .That for me is incinerate without worrying too much about causes unless widespread ,Deer suffer with maladies ,excepted but I’m not too interested in prolonging an inquest having seen the fuss made previous .Cull ,incinerate .
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Put it in a haggis and feed it to a Scotsman,he wont mind or be bothered.
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I feel this is a fair call, not least as you are in a high TB area. If I was presented with an emaciated beast of that description in a known high TB area, I'd be very cautious about opening it up.If you say so sir .
Whether the smell ,yellowing is secondary or not ,it was present in both the conformed cases I’ve shot from our area .Both roe were looking out of sorts ,poor coat and wasted .Eyes glazed .On seeing this again I shall cull but not open as i said .The need to open a definite unfit beast fails me when there is a distinct chance of contamination not only to the man but to the broader section of wildlife .TB as I understand is zoonotic is it not so why mess about with that when incineration is at hand .
The lay stalker is not a veterinarian ,does not need to be but on recognition of something not right we have to make a judgement as to best practice .That for me is incinerate without worrying too much about causes unless widespread ,Deer suffer with maladies ,excepted but I’m not too interested in prolonging an inquest having seen the fuss made previous .Cull ,incinerate .
Smell is a fair guide to, "not right". I can recall a slaughterman on a cattle line picking up a pluck and flinging it into the waste. It looked fine, I asked why, and he said, "smelt wrong".
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
It is sir but having gone through that process twice I’ll not be doing it again for obvious reasons .
It dosnt stop with a confirmed case of Tb on a farm in deer .The farm is then tested and actioned accordingly .Farmer understandably gets a bit anxy and your left very much the bad guy .
Your call ,your stalking ,your reputation .
Having seen it ,I would now just incinerate at my cost and move on .
Just to provide a contrary view, that does not reflect my own personal experience.
I have encountered the situation just the once. This was in a known bTB area, and you can read the full details in the thread here: bTB in Muntjac
Although external signs were discovered once shot, the deer in this case was not visibly "out of sorts" at all, at least from prior observation. It was moving perfectly normally, looked healthy, and acted much the same as any other muntjac I have seen or shot. On opening it up the lesions were obvious. No smell, though, either at the time in the field or afterwards during closer inspection. No yellowing of the organs, either, as you can see from the photos.
However having determined in the field that there was a good chance this was bTB, I did ponder what to do. The easy thing would have been to black bag and bin it. However to my knowledge neither science in general, nor the health of the stock on a farm, was ever advanced by ignoring direct evidence. Hence it was immediately removed back to the larder, reported to APHA, and the estate was notified. Not only do I believe this was the right thing to do morally, but as it turned out we were subsequently complimented on our actions by both APHA and the estate. In addition, and here I am certainly being selfish, I found the whole process of inspection and diagnosis fascinating - I learned a lot from it.
I would also add that, so far as I am aware, no further testing took place specifically as a result of this case. We are still on excellent terms with both the farmer and the estate manager. I like to believe this is because it provided prima facie evidence that we could be trusted to do the right thing when it comes to deer management.
Personally I would have no hesitation about doing the same thing again should, God forbid, I encounter it in the future. I would rather face the consquences - good or bad - of taking the right course of action than consider the alternative. However that is a personal choice that is down to the individual, and I wouldn't condemn anyone who preferred to pursue the quiet life.
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Cattle keepers that I know would be furious if suspected bTB in deer was ignored and hidden away. TB testing is routine now, for many at 60 days, 6 months or annually - extra testing is nothing compared with a new brewing reservoir in wildlife. In any case, I doubt that confirmation of bTB in a deer would normally trigger extra testing in the cattle herd.
You're right to consider your reputation and I suggest that unbiased, truthful information is the way to keep it a good one,
PC
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Ok mate ,have it your way but done it twice and there tis .I would inform landowner but never again take it further myself .Your land do as you wish .
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That sounds fair enough, doesn't it. I don't envy you taking & dealing with animals you've described but at least the landowner would be aware and shares some responsibility.
All the best
PC
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