Changes to Firearms Licensing. What would you do?

An example is you cheat on your wife and she finds out and is upset and furious so says you threatened to shoot her to get back at you? No witnesses, no supporting evidence no previous bad behaviour so what do the police do? Seize your guns and investigate everything as much as they can.
A friend did exactly that and as a key part of offended good lady’s revenge and (perhaps understandably) hitting him where she knew it would really hurt she told the police that he had indeed threatened to shoot her. Guess what? All firearms seized, of which there were quite a few, and FAC ultimately revoked, never to be returned. Be careful out there chaps…
🦊🦊
 
Unless they appeal. BASC membership can put the police off being too cautious, knowing they could have to give evidence in court and be cross-examined by a barrister.

I believe in some cases the police look to go to court so the Judge makes the decision to return or not guns/certificate removing the accountability from that of the police, who are very risk adverse, which will now be even more so.
 
Rightly, our community probably see this for what it is: an isolated incident not requiring a knee-jerk change to law.

Politically there will be pressure to "do something".

How about this pragmatic option:

  • any of us who do volunteer work with the vulnerable will already be DBS screened. For those of us in constant employ in this area, we have signed up for continuous renewal.
  • continuous DBS certification means all relevant state registers are checked annually for misdemeanors/conviction since previous renewal
  • ...so how about making it a requirement that an individual signs up to continuous DBS when they join a shooting club and...
  • ...it is the responsibility of the club committee to review the status of all members annually?

This proposal is a realistic attempt to screen the status of a FAC/SGC holder's recent status based on due process and official records. In that regard it is superior to an opinion an a social media post.

Circling back to the Plymouth incident: could it have changed that outcome? Potentially: if the process above were implemented in tandem with additional restoration-post-revocation checks. [like: no restoration review to be tabled until 2nd annual DBS check comes back clear]




https://secure.crbonline.gov.uk/crsc/check?execution=e1s1
 
I see the famous Mr M Yardley has put his thoughts on how the FC licencing should change into print in the MoS today.
More family visits by the Police !
A very long time ago a Police officer visited my house when I was living at home and asked my mother to bring my shotgun to the door for him to check, he told her it was 'in the usual place' It was actually true as it was stood in the corner behind the back door as was the practice in those days, if he'd looked through the door hinges he could probably have seen it !!
My mother wanted nothing to do with guns and told him she didn't know where it was and that he should come back when I was home and stood her ground.
If more Police visits are implemented things will be a lot different today to what it was then so I cannot see a problem other than more time by the Police and the resulting price rise to cover it !!
There was a time when each village had it's own Bobby and was well known, Cities had their Beat bobbies and subsequent knowledge of the people living there, nowadays there are not enough Bobbies to go round and that is the problem, the public no longer integrate with the police.
During the time from when I first had a shotgun and later a Rifle we had two Bobbies in our village and each knew me by name and probably every other teenager in the two villages that he covered. They had access to a vehicle which was used to visit isolated farms mainly to issue stock movement licences but the majority of the time they used the bike to get around the village, park up then walk around talking to people.
Those times will never come back but that is the only way the police will be able to monitor people properly and get to know if anyone is a nut job or just putting on a show.
 
Last edited:
Rightly, our community probably see this for what it is: an isolated incident not requiring a knee-jerk change to law.

Politically there will be pressure to "do something".

How about this pragmatic option:

  • any of us who do volunteer work with the vulnerable will already be DBS screened. For those of us in constant employ in this area, we have signed up for continuous renewal.
  • continuous DBS certification means all relevant state registers are checked annually for misdemeanors/conviction since previous renewal
  • ...so how about making it a requirement that an individual signs up to continuous DBS when they join a shooting club and...
  • ...it is the responsibility of the club committee to review the status of all members annually?

This proposal is a realistic attempt to screen the status of a FAC/SGC holder's recent status based on due process and official records. In that regard it is superior to an opinion an a social media post.

Circling back to the Plymouth incident: could it have changed that outcome? Potentially: if the process above were implemented in tandem with additional restoration-post-revocation checks. [like: no restoration review to be tabled until 2nd annual DBS check comes back clear]

https://secure.crbonline.gov.uk/crsc/check?execution=e1s1


No need to be a member of any club to own a Shotgun.

Is it really the responsibility of a club Secretary or committee to do the job of the police?

We need to wait for the investigation to conclude and see what went wrong (if anything) with the current licensing process before we recommend or suggest anymore checks, vetting, home visits etc.

Priti is a career politician, aspiring for further political glory so will be surprised if this tragic incident results in no change to the current process, but it may just finally sort out the mess which is the current GP report process.
 
No need to be a member of any club to own a Shotgun.

Agreed. Unless, as discussed by others, shotguns join rifles in needing to have "good reason" and, by extension possibly, club membership.

And I further agree that the investigation needs to run its course.

Nothing society ever does will stop a loon from reaching for a knife/hammer/baseball bat, etc.

But the spirit of this thread is to show a willingness for greater transparency and accountability on the part of the shooting fraternity. On terms we can live with. I.e. looking for something Priti can apply that ticks all boxes for politicians, but does not derail any genuine and law-abiding shooter's activities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: C.J
Can just see the farmers joining a clay club just to get a shotgun.

Will be a nightmare if we go down the “good reason” path for shotguns, possibly restricting the type and number you can posses requiring a verification to your certificate every time you buy or sell one. Limits on the number of cartridges you can buy or posses.

Please let not even joke about that as away forward especially as it would not stop such a tragic event.

It’s not the gun that is the issue it is a people issue, one gun or a hundred matters not in the hands of such an evil person.
 
Indeed. Davison could have wreaked the same carnage with six cartridges and a single barrel shotgun. Changing the type of gun permitted under licence would have made not the slightest difference.

What would have made a difference would have been addressing his psychological and personality problems and his sense of disenfranchisement from society. But that is hardly a matter for firearms licencing.
 
After the tragic events in Plymouth, it is inevitable there will be calls for a tightening up on firearms licensing. Lets be honest, most people (including, most politicians and most of the media) know next to nothing about firearms, or current licensing regulations. We do, because we at the sharp end.

So, without speculating on the Plymouth case before due process has had a chance to do its job, or intruding on the grief of those affected who are still coming to terms with it, what in more general terms, is our collective take on the current state of firearms licensing and regulations and how do we think the law and process could be improved? Knee-jerk legislation is rarely good or useful legislation.

My view is that, broadly the system is well intentioned and for the most part effective. But there are areas of dysfunction. One concerns the assessment of mental health and its impact on gun ownership. To me that area is all very knee-jerk and emotive. For one thing, as I mentioned in the locked thread, I believe the current approach lacks nuance and is too much of a blunt instrument. It discourages otherwise well adjusted and responsible FAC holders from seeking professional help should they become overwhelmed by life's events and succumb to emotional problems. No one is immune to such things, especially in this pressurised society we have created. As someone said on the other thread, an MOT only certifies a vehicle fit and serviceable on the day of issue. It may be valid for a year but it can't guarantee some defect won't develop before expiry which makes the vehicle unsafe. Firearms licensing as it stands seems tailor-made to ensure FAC holders are more likely to bottle up problems and try to tough them out rather than seek help. I've always said, it's not people who seek help for emotional or psychological problems you need to worry about, it's those who don't.

And do we place too much pressure on GPs to assess the mental health of patients they may not have seen for years? Not everyone who is suffering emotional problems is a danger to themselves or anyone else. The vast majority are not. Are GPs always the best people to make that assessment and where they are not, who is and how could it be handled better?

So (a), I think the whole issue of mental health needs to be de-sensationalised and treated more rationally. How could this be done so that it filters more effectively?

And (b), the police and firearms licensing generally need more resources, more expertise and less political interference. It is they who should be telling politicians where improvements can be made, not being left implementing back-of-a-fag-packet initiatives politicians have drawn up in a hurry to keep the media happy.

To do that FA licensing personnel need to be better trained or more knowledgeable about firearms from the start. Too many lack first hand experience. Partly because, as in all arms of government, police personnel tend to be promoted sideways and appointments are filled from within instead of seeking expertise from outside. How could this be changed?

And the system needs to be better resourced. Personally I'd happily pay double the fee for renewals, or more, IF I thought that the money was all going back into firearms licensing and being used to make the system function more efficiently and effectively.

No regulatory system can ever be perfect and it cannot anticipate and prevent all undesirable outcomes. So bearing that in mind, if it was down to us, and if we were consulted (which of course we won't be) how would we improve the system?
Simplify the process by getting rid of S1 in favour of S2, bring in a compulsory 6 month probationary period served with either a club or employer before granting a certificate and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the shooting public bring in mandatory safety training !
 
I don't suppose this will be a popular opinion but I think shotguns should fall under the same grants process as firearms, ie, 'required to show good reason'.
Good reason itself is not a problem, good reason for each firearm/shotgun held is. FLDs can amuse themselves for hours nit-picking over this and inconveniencing the law-abiding whilst totally ignoring more important issues such as whether or not the applicant is a homicidal maniac with a dangerous attitude problem.
 
Indeed. Davison could have wreaked the same carnage with six cartridges and a single barrel shotgun. Changing the type of gun permitted under licence would have made not the slightest difference.

What would have made a difference would have been addressing his psychological and personality problems and his sense of disenfranchisement from society. But that is hardly a matter for firearms licencing.
Absolutely
 
The original question here was "what would you do?" As others have suggested my solution would be to move the whole licensing function to a system of bands as in Northern Ireland. At present there must be tens of thousands of clerical hours used annually to perform variations and notifications of acquisition/disposal, with associated printing and postage costs. The present FAC system has been in place for almost a century, the volume of paper based data must be immense and most of it is totally pointless, consider the process of a variation for replacement of a burnt out moderator. I don't know the detail of the NI system but I understand that the principle is rifles are placed by calibre in bands and swapping within a band is simply a matter of one for one with electronic notification to the licensing authority. Each FAC holder has an allocation of a number of rifles in each band, agreed as at present between FEO and certificate holder.

I have read in some of the many consultations of recent years that the police want to retain paper certificates in order to track ammunition sales to verify use of firearms. How about RFD notification of ammunition and component sales electronically? We must all have an electronic record at the licensing authority, a move to an NI type system could be progressive as certificates expire or are submitted for variation. There would be no need for an expensive to produce and manage paper document, all data and a photo could be held on something similar to the present driving licence, in either a chip or scan code that any police officer could access or simply by calling in to the operational control centre a reference number on the card. There are many examples of store loyalty cards, credit and debit cards carrying data so it can be done. It would have to be implemented on a national basis, with any police officer able to access data to verify that an individual was in lawful possession of a particular firearm and ammunition. This has been achieved for car insurance, MoT and ownership, once the system was up and running the operational costs and processing delays would be vastly reduced.
 
“ I understand that the principle is rifles are placed by calibre in bands and swapping within a band is simply a matter of one for one with electronic notification to the licensing authority. Each FAC holder has an allocation of a number of rifles in each band, agreed as at present between FEO and certificate holder.”.
Yep, there is indeed a banded system but swapping one for one has to be done through a registered dealer who then electronically notifies the PSNI - this incurs a charge of I believe £20 a go and is restricted to non-range firearms only. Many have an uphill struggle to convince PSNI of the need for more than one rifle per band (rimfire upto 22 mag; c/f from 22H upto 22-250 and c/f beyond that) - “why do you need a Hornet when you already have a 222/ why do you need a 22 lr when you already have a 17hmr? “ ad nauseum though to be fair I have found that a common sense approach works well. The system since introduction however has totally failed struggled to get anywhere near the savings it was supposed to achieve or the much-vaunted improvements in renewal/variation times. This of course has been exacerbated by the C19 crock of excuses perfect storm. Sooo not so perfect and still in need of some attention.
All that said I do warm to the idea of a card that holds all info required but beware - some information may well work against you come renewal (now called “regrant” - go figure!).
🦊🦊
 
The original question here was "what would you do?" As others have suggested my solution would be to move the whole licensing function to a system of bands as in Northern Ireland. At present there must be tens of thousands of clerical hours used annually to perform variations and notifications of acquisition/disposal, with associated printing and postage costs. The present FAC system has been in place for almost a century, the volume of paper based data must be immense and most of it is totally pointless, consider the process of a variation for replacement of a burnt out moderator. I don't know the detail of the NI system but I understand that the principle is rifles are placed by calibre in bands and swapping within a band is simply a matter of one for one with electronic notification to the licensing authority. Each FAC holder has an allocation of a number of rifles in each band, agreed as at present between FEO and certificate holder.

I have read in some of the many consultations of recent years that the police want to retain paper certificates in order to track ammunition sales to verify use of firearms. How about RFD notification of ammunition and component sales electronically? We must all have an electronic record at the licensing authority, a move to an NI type system could be progressive as certificates expire or are submitted for variation. There would be no need for an expensive to produce and manage paper document, all data and a photo could be held on something similar to the present driving licence, in either a chip or scan code that any police officer could access or simply by calling in to the operational control centre a reference number on the card. There are many examples of store loyalty cards, credit and debit cards carrying data so it can be done. It would have to be implemented on a national basis, with any police officer able to access data to verify that an individual was in lawful possession of a particular firearm and ammunition. This has been achieved for car insurance, MoT and ownership, once the system was up and running the operational costs and processing delays would be vastly reduced.
I'm surprised the FAC isn't in a digital card format like the driving licence. It would make a huge difference to the amount of bureaucratic legwork licencing authorities have to go through, which would free up resources and speed up grants and renewals.

Firearms licensing is and always has been an afterthought of government. Always on the back burner. Always the lowest priority because there's no votes in making it work better.
 
Sadly the police lost one of their own over the weekend who took his daughter with him, we had a police murdering a lady earlier this year. Both demonstrate the difficulty of monity people.
 
About time too. It looks like they will be scanning SD for our thoughts, if they do it may come as an eye opener to many FLDs as collectively we are far more inclined to discuss their shortcomings amongst ourselves rather than live in fear of retribution by making official complaints.
 
Using the daily mail for a news source is like using a toblerone for welding steel.
My dirty little secret.

I take the Mail on Sunday, because I enjoy completing and submitting the competition crosswords.

I cannot bear to read the actual rag and always feel dirty after touching it.

To what support group, should I look to for help?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2185.webp
    IMG_2185.webp
    56.1 KB · Views: 27
  • IMG_2186.webp
    IMG_2186.webp
    27 KB · Views: 27
This was and remains a terrible human tragedy.

The press reports would appear to suggest failings by D&C constabulary in effective implementation of existing legislation by the Police rather than any failing of the legislation.

Calls for wider powers are almost a standard response from any administrative body when they are found not to have been effectively using the powers they already have.

An inside source suggesting that D&C constabulary was handing back firearms or shotguns because of fears about legal proceedings challenging revocations does not sound like any force I have ever encountered. Invariably their stance is to revoke and then force you to appeal. They rarely ever have any fear of an appeal and are quite content to leave it for the Court to decide, not least because it makes it the Court's problem if the appellant is subsequently found to be a nutter.
 
Back
Top