Buying ammunition from someone who home loads

[308tikka]

‘

'Never accept loads from an unknown source, they could be hot!'...

‘Hotter than a $2 pistol...’

For the OP:

Are you insured to shoot non-CIP ammunition?

Is the person selling you ammunition also ?

Will you be around any other sentient being when you fire that ammunition....?

 

[25 Sharps]

I know next to nothing about home-loading so apologies in advance if some of what follows reflects that ignorance.

My understanding is that people put together their own ammunition for three reasons:
1. It might work out cheaper/round than factory ammo;
2. Consistency - assuming you know what you are doing a hand made product is likely to be better (and most consistent) than something that is mass produced on a large scale production line;
3. Specification - home loaders can design their own round to their own spec in terms of bullet weight and properties, powder, primer etc.

OK so far?

So my question is this: is it legal to buy home-loaded ammo from someone who makes it for their own use? Obviously within the terms of your and their FACs. I understand that they would be breaking the law if they made more ammo (in order to sell some to someone else) than they were legally allowed to hold on their ticket. But assuming my FAC allows me to buy and possess ammunition am I allowed to buy it from anyone or can I only buy it from an RFD.

The reason I ask... I see lots of people home loading but I don’t see home loaders advertising ammo for sale. (Maybe I just don’t know what to look for on this front) Maybe it isn’t worth anyone’s while; maybe it’s illegal. I would be interested to know - particularly with the lead ban on the horizon. I can imagine people offering to make bespoke home loads might be able charge enough to make it worth their while.

You can give home loads away, you cannot legally sell them. And why would you in this litigious society?

 

[25 Sharps]

‘

‘Hotter than a $2 pistol...’

For the OP:

Are you insured to shoot non-CIP ammunition?

Is the person selling you ammunition also ?

Will you be around any other sentient being when you fire that ammunition....?

Is any home loader insured to shoot non CIP ammunition?

 

[25 Sharps]

In general terms, I totally agree with this. However, it's not uncommon for people to use other people to develop a load for their rifle, and if the person is offering you a "load development" service, I can't see a problem, assuming you can confirm the persons credentials !

What bona fide credentials would they actually be able to show?

 

[User00044]

Anyone selling ammo commercially in the UK, that is to the general public, is required to ensure that he ammo is CIP approved, meaning the load should be tested at a Proof House. If someone is loading ammo for you personally, then essentially the ammo is being made on your behalf and you are paying for a service, not the ammo per se. In those circumstances, the ammo should be made for your particular rifle with the usual 'working up' procedure. This is a perfectly legal procedure and done intelligently, safe as well.

If they don't possess your particular chambering on their FAC for the ammunition they are producing , you would have to be present or they would need to be an RFD . Otherwise, they would be in illegal possession of ammunition .

 

[Lateral]

What bona fide credentials would they actually be able to show?

Ok, "if" for example, Muir were to offer to load for someone local to him, would you consider him competent ?

Are you suggesting there is no one on the SD, capable of doing this safely for someone ?

 

[25 Sharps]

Ok, "if" for example, Muir were to offer to load for someone local to him, would you consider him competent ?

Are you suggesting there is no one on the SD, capable of doing this safely for someone ?

No, where would you take that from?

You are the one who suggested that credentials would need to be confirmed, but there are no recognised credentials so you are just going on trust.

 

[25 Sharps]

If they don't possess your particular chambering on their FAC for the ammunition they are producing , you would have to be present or they would need to be an RFD . Otherwise, they would be in illegal possession of ammunition .

You wouldn’t just need to be present you’d need to, at the very least, seat the bulletin and handle the loaded ammo.

 

[Lateral]

No, where would you take that from?

You are the one who suggested that credentials would need to be confirmed, but there are no recognised credentials so you are just going on trust.

"Credentials" are subjective, and you don't need a piece of paper, to be credible !

I would not recommend anyone takes ammunition someone has loaded for their own rifle, and just tries it ! BUT, if, as I said in an earlier post, someone with the right experience, develops a load for another persons "specific rifle", I can't see the issue.

 

[csl]

Ok, "if" for example, Muir were to offer to load for someone local to him, would you consider him competent ?

Are you suggesting there is no one on the SD, capable of doing this safely for someone ?

If they have no insurance, no evidence of a company etc. than no, in my opinion. From my point of view it's not a question of competence, it's because I don't want to a part of anyone dying and neither do the other party.

 

[25 Sharps]

"Credentials" are subjective, and you don't need a piece of paper, to be credible !

I would not recommend anyone takes ammunition someone has loaded for their own rifle, and just tries it ! BUT, if I said in an earlier post, someone with the right experience, develops a load for another persons "specific rifle", I can't see the issue.

I never suggested you did need a piece of paper or that there weren’t capable people out there.

My point is there is no way of checking that someone actually knows what they are doing other than taking it on trust.

Personally I think it’s far better to learn yourself or stick to factory ammunition.

 

[SpikeD]

There are many issues to deal with here but firstly you are asking in the wrong place. An Internet forum is never the source to ask for legal advice, you will receive opinion from people you don't personally know and none their opinion will stand up in court. Ask your FEO / firearms department. They are legally qualified to give you advice.

If someone is manufacturing ammunition to sell, they are acting as a business and require an RFD see the opening paragraph Register as a firearms dealer - GOV.UK. This places legal restrictions above and beyond that of a FAC. Their place of residence becomes a place of business and as such insurance and public liability become issues needing to be addressed. Depending on how much ammunition and powder is being stored there may be a need to register as an explosives store.

Now lets consider the potential liability of someone selling and indeed the person using said reloads. In the event of an incident causing injury or death down to these where would you and the person selling these stand? Factory ammunition is designed to work and be safe in all arms chambered for that round. Batches are regularly proof tested to take into account the variance that occurs between batches of powder / primers and adjusted accordingly. The handloads that work in one rifle may well be dangerous in another, unless they have had these tested by the proof house you have no idea what pressure they are operating at. The loading data you read in a manual was tested with that manufacturer of primer, case, bullet. Are the homeloads absolutely identical or have some or all of the components changed? If so it is an assumption that the modified handloads are producing the same pressure, did the person making these drop down the charge and work back up again?. Is it worth the risk on both parties just to save a few pounds?
I'm sure there will be replies trying to work around this splitting hairs about "well I didn't pay for the reloads" or "I seated the bullet". In the latter case why not learn to reload safely in the first place? You can always start with the person who was going to sell you the rounds showing you the ropes but I'd recommend starting with a decent reloading manual and read it cover to cover. Better still read several from different manufacturers and you'll soon see that the charges for bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers vary as do the quoted velocities & pressures. You'll be much better equipped to reload safely and accurately. Certainly you can still make mistakes but a methodical reloading practice built on a solid knowledge of the subject should prevent this.

 

[Stalker62]

They are legally qualified to give you advice.

No.
No, they are not.

 

[SpikeD]

That's a fair point stalker1962, I'll retract that to say they are a better place to start to answer the question. Perhaps the legal profession are the ones legally qualified to give you advice?

 

[SpikeD]

Looking on the Birmingham Proof House site Proof House Services | Birmingham Proof House

"Cartridges loaded or reloaded in small quantities for personal use only and not given, sold or supplied to a third party for later distribution or sale, are not subject to C.I.P. Decisions."

I read this as you are not required to have your own home loaded cartridges for personal use not subjected to proof requirements. Selling/giving or supplying to others would place you under C.I.P Decisions.

 

[Eric1933]

It not illegal to buy home loads,but I learned an important lesson back in the 1980s, a friend and myself had .30M1 carbines, Dave decided to sell his, I bought his 1000 rounds of homeloads and blew my bolt after 3 rounds! Luckily not hurt and sent to Brownells for a new one,took ages pulling them,lesson DO NOT USE other people's reloads

 

[Heym SR20]

I suggest the OP has a good read of the firearms act and the proof house legislation especially the bits about ammunition.

I also suggest he gets hold of a copy of a good reloading manual published by the like of Hornady, Lee or one of the powder manufacturers and read these and then draw his own conclusions.

 

[J@son]

Thanks everyone. To be clear I have no interest in learning how to put together my own ammo. I was interested in whether buying ammo from an experienced home-loader might offer a way of getting around some of the reported problems with factory produced lead-free ammo. But clearly it doesn’t! To be honest, based on some of the responses, I wonder why anyone would ever want to make their own ammunition. Some of these replies make it sound like a terrible idea! I am also surprised by the divided opinion on whether buying or selling ammo made at home is legal. Again to be clear, I wasn’t asking for legal advice as such. But I thought the position would be much clearer than, clearly, it is with such a wide range of views being expressed. Anyway thank you to everyone who has responded... I will not be taking this any further so no need for any further replies from my perspective.

 

[Overlay]

There is a company in the uk I believe that will load ammunition to your specification and trial them for correct loading and accuracy for your rifle and provide the details of the exact load, bullet type and pressures etc etc so you have proof of consistency and materials used required as a bona fide safe load consistency

whether that would still be acceptable to the forestry commission and other land owner managers would be debatable

on some of my ground I shoot over within the RA-MS the ammunition type and speed is required for the individual species, even more so with the non toxic route gathering momentum as always everything has to have a paper trail, most of it is a arse covering exercise by the HSAW guy at the clients head office, but the logic and reasoning behind it is safety lead and compliance

we could do without all the crap but there is a need for it, the requirement for a safe and suitable round should be on top of the list of any ammo
I now stick to factory loads for everything, get it all set up, paper trail etc etc and working as it should = less work and minimising risks = peaceful shooting

 

[25 Sharps]

There is a company in the uk I believe that will load ammunition to your specification and trial them for correct loading and accuracy for your rifle and provide the details of the exact load, bullet type and pressures etc etc so you have proof of consistency and materials used required as a bona fide safe load consistency

whether that would still be acceptable to the forestry commission and other land owner managers would be debatable

on some of my ground I shoot over within the RA-MS the ammunition type and speed is required for the individual species, even more so with the non toxic route gathering momentum as always everything has to have a paper trail, most of it is a arse covering exercise by the HSAW guy at the clients head office, but the logic and reasoning behind it is safety lead and compliance

we could do without all the crap but there is a need for it, the requirement for a safe and suitable round should be on top of the list of any ammo
I now stick to factory loads for everything, get it all set up, paper trail etc etc and working as it should = less work and minimising risks = peaceful shooting

Factory .308, have also had federal .308 dangerously over pressure in a guest’s rifle on a guest day at the club.

I’m sticking with home loads in future as then I’m in control!