Pre DSC 1 shooting skills training

[Sharpie]

The big elephant in the room is that the shooting test doesn’t matter, you can repeat just that element of the test as often as you like until you luck through

That used to be the case. No longer. If you can't manage this (trivially easy) aspect of the exam at first go, you are nowadays, allowed just one more chance.

Otherwise you must return another day, to try again. Minimum 24 hours later, if your course provider is going to be prepared to give you a special session the next day.

You are nowadays expected to turn up with a deer legal rifle, and ammo, then put the bullets into the proper places. No mucking about zeroing the thing and practicing beforehand anymore. Certainly you may borrow a rifle from the course provider if you don't have your own already.

But you are expected to know how to shoot already. This is the crux of the matter. Some do, some do not, indeed it might have been the first ever time that they have shot a centrefire.

Air rifle practice is good, up to a point.

Ages ago when I did mine, under laxer rules, I was frankly shocked at how poor many candidates were. Including several "professionals" who had been culling deer for years, but now had to get their DSC1s to continue employment. They seemed to resent that, half of them did not pass, either on the more important things, or simply marksmanship.. Indeed two walked out of the classroom before the exams because, well, they resented it , knew that they could not pass on many of the other topics, and had nothing to contribute. They were not missed.

I entered into it from a target shooting background, as well as having already killed half a dozen deer with a mentor, grallocked butchered and eaten them, participated in a park cull and processed more than half a dozen more. and honestly couldn't see why they were such poor shots. Back in that day several of them had three, four, or more goes at in the afternoon, with coaching, and failed every time. Even on the "simulated stalk".

I think it is tighter nowadays, and nor does DSC1 anymore get you "trained hunter" status. Correctly so IMO.

I think that what is being suggested might only be to introduce some novices to shooting centrefire rifles, from positions to pass a test. Doubtless some may need help with that. But calling it an intro. to DSC1 might be stretching it a bit too far. It is not just about how to shoot a rifle with a modicum of accuracy, never mind even understanding where to place the shot in real conditions, as opposed to just placing it on the official target.

 

[Dunwaters]

That used to be the case. No longer. If you can't manage this (trivially easy) aspect of the exam at first go, you are nowadays, allowed just one more chance.

Otherwise you must return another day, to try again. Minimum 24 hours later, if your course provider is going to be prepared to give you a special session the next day.

You are nowadays expected to turn up with a deer legal rifle, and ammo, then put the bullets into the proper places. No mucking about zeroing the thing and practicing beforehand anymore. Certainly you may borrow a rifle from the course provider if you don't have your own already.

But you are expected to know how to shoot already. This is the crux of the matter. Some do, some do not, indeed it might have been the first ever time that they have shot a centrefire.

Air rifle practice is good, up to a point.

Ages ago when I did mine, under laxer rules, I was frankly shocked at how poor many candidates were. Including several "professionals" who had been culling deer for years, but now had to get their DSC1s to continue employment. They seemed to resent that, half of them did not pass, either on the more important things, or simply marksmanship.. Indeed two walked out of the classroom before the exams because, well, they resented it , knew that they could not pass on many of the other topics, and had nothing to contribute. They were not missed.

I entered into it from a target shooting background, as well as having already killed half a dozen deer with a mentor, grallocked butchered and eaten them, participated in a park cull and processed more than half a dozen more. and honestly couldn't see why they were such poor shots. Back in that day several of them had three, four, or more goes at in the afternoon, with coaching, and failed every time. Even on the "simulated stalk".

I think it is tighter nowadays, and nor does DSC1 anymore get you "trained hunter" status. Correctly so IMO.

I think that what is being suggested might only be to introduce some novices to shooting centrefire rifles, from positions to pass a test. Doubtless some may need help with that. But calling it an intro. to DSC1 might be stretching it a bit too far. It is not just about how to shoot a rifle with a modicum of accuracy, never mind even understanding where to place the shot in real conditions, as opposed to just placing it on the official target.

The situation you describe is pretty much exactly what I’ve seen for myself, really poor marksmanship and an inability to complete a very basic test successfully, but how many of those people go on to drag their poor shooting through the formal certification process?
Put it another way, how many people applying for DSC1 don’t make the grade and are refused certification?
There should be a limit to the total number of repeats permitted on the shooting test during the certification process, if you can’t pass it on say 3 separate occasions you should be politely informed that you lack the basic skills and may need to consider golf or bowls rather than stalking.

 

[Kersnow]

I went on a day course with Greenlee Deer at Haltwhistle this summer that covered all of the above

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Other than the fundamentals of safety, weapons handling and practicing for the test

Should there be any more to a course ?

Something could be put together pretty easily using circa 50-100 rounds of 22 and twenty rounds of CF for sub £100 per person per day

Factor in a refresher session prior to the actual DSC test (which in my view should remain in the old format) using RF ans CF for additional “at cost” for candidates wanting extra help

I apreciate this may add to the cost but the quality of candidates shooting should be improved if this type of thing is put forward to help them

From my perspective it isn’t a cash cow but something to provide future deer stalkers with the basics for humane killing of their quarry

I think Understanding and Using MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) — Ron Spomer Outdoors needs to be covered. I think there needs to be serious thought given to the distances at which shooting tests are performed. Shooting at 100m and less does not really reflect what people do on open ground. I did a shooting test recently with BASC and they requested that only factory ammunition be used.
Regards
JCS

 

[Basil H]

Some years ago I decided to get back into stalking. I did the BASC Firearms Awareness Training (Rifle) course and then the Pre-DSC1 course, before doing DSC.
The first was an excellent day, very practically based, run by Chris Brooks with Jim Riley at DGVM, and it covered the ground suggested above. There were absolute beginners and also "returners" like myself. My first experience of using a Blaser (no thanks) as well as a conventional CF and my first experience of quadsticks (yes please).
Time and money well spent, and a much more useful exercise than the Pre-DSC in fact.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Absolutely - people need to learn how to shoot BUT they should do that before the DSC.

Part of the issue is probably the fact that some police services seem to expect DSC1 before a certificate will be granted.

 

[VSS]

The big elephant in the room is that the shooting test doesn’t matter, you can repeat just that element of the test as often as you like until you luck through,

Only a limited number of attempts on the one day though, if I remember correctly. Otherwise you had to retake it at a later date. That's always been the case as far as I know.

For the whole DSC1 thing to have any credibility then a certain percentage of candidates must fail. There has to be a standard, and it must be adhered to.
Interestingly, I spoke with one examiner who'd had a ticking off from the regulatory bodies for failing too many candidates. His answer to them was pretty much as I stated above - if the standard isn't reached then the candidate fails, simple as. It's not just an exercise in handing out undeserved certificates.
Probably, between the written test and the shooting test, about 30 - 40% of candidates ought to fail at the first attempt, otherwise I'd say that the test isn't severe enough.

 

[VSS]

That used to be the case. No longer. If you can't manage this (trivially easy) aspect of the exam at first go, you are nowadays, allowed just one more chance.

Otherwise you must return another day, to try again. Minimum 24 hours later, if your course provider is going to be prepared to give you a special session the next day.

I don't think there's been a recent change in this respect. As far as I remember it, you got 2 chances and if you didn't succeed then you had to do it another day.

 

[Alantoo]

I am very grateful for the second chance to take the shooting test on my DSC1.

I had no problem with the test when practicing with Paul Hill at Corinium. On the actual DSC1 test I was setting my Bogpod tripod height to take the kneeling shot when Vince the instructor / RCO told me to lower it further. Which put me into a screaming lower back pain position and I pulled a shot. Retaking the standing and kneeling part again shortly afterwards, he didn’t interfere, and I shot fine without problem.

Always resented it, but the RCO is God.

Alan

 

[Morkai]

I am very grateful for the second chance to take the shooting test on my DSC1.

I had no problem with the test when practicing with Paul Hill at Corinium. On the actual DSC1 test I was setting my Bogpod tripod height to take the kneeling shot when Vince the instructor / RCO told me to lower it further. Which put me into a screaming lower back pain position and I pulled a shot. Retaking the standing and kneeling part again shortly afterwards, he didn’t interfere, and I shot fine without problem.

Always resented it, but the RCO is God.

Alan

Why did he want it lower, kneeling is kneeling?

 

[8x57]

Absolutely - people need to learn how to shoot BUT they should do that before the DSC.

Part of the issue is probably the fact that some police services seem to expect DSC1 before a certificate will be granted.

Yes I've assisted with a few shooting tests acting as RCO and have witnessed absolute novices taking the test and also experienced target shooters who were totally unprepared for the simple test, not having even zeroed their rifles beforehand never mind tried a few practice runs before coming to the range.

I was merely the RCO and ensured that there were no safety violations but I have witnessed trainers/assessors do every absolutely every thing but pull the trigger for some candidates to ensure that they passed. This included loading the rifle and setting it up on a tripod. To my mind that was quite wrong and the candidate should at least be capable of demonstrating that unaided they are safe and competent when handling a firearm.

I'm a firm believer that a certain amount of suitable training and instruction should be requisite before taking the shooting test of the DSC1.

 

[Dunwaters]

I'm a firm believer that a certain amount of suitable training and instruction should be requisite before taking the shooting test of the DSC1.

So a mandatory test before the test?

 

[Morkai]

To be fair, at those distances with a known zero theres not really any good reason for someone even remotely interested in shooting to miss, practice or no practice.

I suspect you could explain in 2 minutes to someone who has never held a gun before to hit the target within a few shots.

Some people are just inept at alot of things.

 

[8x57]

So a mandatory test before the test?

No but I think it reasonable that candidates should be capable of safely and competently handling a firearm unassisted.

That is where membership beforehand of a suitable club can be beneficial, as a H.O. club is required to provide suitable instruction in order to comply with the approval regulations. Alternatively such training could be provided by a competent individual or organisation.

 

[8x57]

Some people are just inept at a lot of things.

I will agree with you about that.
There are a few people who walk this earth that are incapable of even licking a stamp without being led through the process step by step. I wouldn't want them let loose with a firearm.

 

[Morkai]

I will agree with you about that.
There are a few people who walk this earth that are incapable of even licking a stamp without being led through the process step by step. I wouldn't want them let loose with a firearm.

When I was a child I used to think that all adults knew everything and were all capable, then you grow up and realise how many idiots are about....most would have died if they ever had to fend for or think for themselves.

 

[Alantoo]

Why did he want it lower, kneeling is kneeling?

I have no idea...but he was the RCO and I was not in a position to argue. As I said I have always resented it.

My Bogpod was used by some (most) of the others on the course as being easier to use than twin sticks this was a decade ago a few years BQ (before Quadsticks!)

Telescoping sticks?

I'm toying with the idea of treating myself to a pair of those metal, telescoping stalking sticks, just need some pointers as to whose brand will be up to being used by a welder!:lol:, last I tried, packed up the same day! (weak tube sections, & twist locks were never very positive):(

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Alan

 

[Dunwaters]

No but I think it reasonable that candidates should be capable of safely and competently handling a firearm unassisted.

That is where membership beforehand of a suitable club can be beneficial, as a H.O. club is required to provide suitable instruction in order to comply with the approval regulations. Alternatively such training could be provided by a competent individual or organisation.

We already have that, and it seems to have made absolutely no difference to either skill levels or safety despite it being forced on every new FAC applicant.
Before championing new restrictions, or even carrying on with the old ones, it might be beneficial to audit their effectiveness.
What problems were the restriction supposed to address and has it been successful?
If its not effective, discontinue it because it serves no purpose except to discourage people from taking up our sport.

 

[scotch_egg]

People take driving lessons before taking a driving test.

Why not shooting lessons before a shooting test.

Because that would be common sense.

 

[8x57]

We already have that, and it seems to have made absolutely no difference to either skill levels or safety despite it being forced on every new FAC applicant.
Before championing new restrictions, or even carrying on with the old ones, it might be beneficial to audit their effectiveness.
What problems were the restriction supposed to address and has it been successful?
If its not effective, discontinue it because it serves no purpose except to discourage people from taking up our sport.

I can't honestly believe that you are suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable to give a complete novice a gun and ammunition and say just get on with it. That's just plain potty.