A difficult decision? I doubt it!
Pre DSC 1 shooting skills training
- Thread starter Ronin
- Start date
Why Bother? I can only see knowledge and education as positive things...so I have been on a lot of informative "courses"....I have been all over the world to watch and learn from other blacksmiths...I would be happy to attend a course such as the OP described because I am sure I could learn something new, learn from somebody else's experience and take on the subject....I couldn't give a toss about a certificate...opportunities to learn are for my own benefit and interest...certificates are about showing what you have done to other people.
You seem to be concerned about a different thing than the OP is actually suggesting.
Alan
Overlay
Well-Known Member
join a rifle club, learn the basics of safety, marksmanship and continual learning, out with a decent outfitter and just keep learning learning and learning there is your DSC 1 pre training, keep soaking it up and make your way safely and with a wildlife conscious it takes a while of learning to prepare or be safe and a reasonable shot its not a overnight course that just points you in the right direction, only you will know when you can and are close to take on a more detailed learning curve such as DSC1
enjoy the ride to a safe considerate deer stalker, not that it has to be all deer, rabbit or fox shooting share the same principles, your time your learning satisfaction, there is no rush be comfortable and enjoy the ride
enjoy the ride to a safe considerate deer stalker, not that it has to be all deer, rabbit or fox shooting share the same principles, your time your learning satisfaction, there is no rush be comfortable and enjoy the ride
Oracle
Well-Known Member
The aim of this course is to equip the candidate with the knowledge, understanding, skills and awareness required to undertake basic rifle shooting as required for the Deer Stalking Certificate 1 (DSC1) Shooting Assessment. It is an ideal course aimed at the beginner or novice shot to improve shooting ability prior to undertaking the DSC1.
I am presuming that this is the type of course (offered by BASC) Ronin was referring to. No doubt there maybe similar courses offered by other training providers.
I am presuming that this is the type of course (offered by BASC) Ronin was referring to. No doubt there maybe similar courses offered by other training providers.
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
As I see it that issue is people don’t really want to learn these things, they just want the prices of paper that say they know it all. DSC1 (and 2) have more become something to collect either from need (to get an FAC etc) or from desire to ‘prove’ competence - as a result people are relying on them for that and not actually gaining the Experian’s that is so valuable, the courses are viewed as a one stop shop.
It’s also probably indicative of the people not shooting / stalking etc not being ‘time served’ as actually having experience which arguably is more important.
There is always a place for certification but it shouldn’t stand alone and people will always find way to short circuit it (I’m thinking along the lines of the rumours about it being possible to buy a level 2 rather than actually do the work)
It’s also probably indicative of the people not shooting / stalking etc not being ‘time served’ as actually having experience which arguably is more important.
There is always a place for certification but it shouldn’t stand alone and people will always find way to short circuit it (I’m thinking along the lines of the rumours about it being possible to buy a level 2 rather than actually do the work)
Out of curiosity, how does your view stand with those that have been shooting for decades, self taught with no training, should they now have to go out and take compulsory courses?
8x57
Distinguished Member
That's a tough one to answer because I have very mixed thoughts on that one.
I say that because the majority of older shooters that I've met are very safety conscious and their general gun handling is beyond reproach. Perhaps this is because of they have over the years been given direction by others or have taken the time to read and educate themselves in the correct ways, who knows! And then I've met a few, usually only the once or twice because I make it a point to stay away from being anywhere near them, who simply are a disaster just waiting to happen. Notice that I avoided using the word "accident" there.
One guy I can think of has a pair of very nice AYA number 2 shotguns, beautiful looking guns which I admire. However I don't admire looking down the muzzles of an them unbroken on a shoot day. I have a habit of getting even grumpier than my usual self when that happens.
Another chap that I shall avoid being any where near when he has a gun in his hands is a local farmer. I called in and was chatting with my brother at his garage one day when one of his regular customers pulls in in his Discovery. There was a fist sized hole in the front passenger door covered by tape and in conversation I asked how he had done that. "Oh that was dad" was the answer I got. He then went on to tell me about his father looking down the fields towards his pond which he stocked with a few trout and shouting out in a rage "those bloody cormorants are back" before grabbing a shotgun from the house and throwing it across the passenger seat before heading down the field. The gun went off and he blew a hole in the door. I was a bit stunned by the story and said something like "that's going to be a bit difficult to explain to the insurance company". I was even more stunned when he told me that he had done something similar before.
Then there are some older chaps who seem not to have any knowledge about firearms or wildlife laws or perhaps are indifferent to them. I was at a deer management group meeting one evening when a chap who is a landowner and FAC holder of many years was astonished to discover that shooting fallow deer with full metal jacket cheap ex military ammunition wasn't quite legal. He didn't know that expanding bullets were required under the Deer Act and wondered if this may be why so many of the deer he shot at in his orchards seemed to make it on to surrounding lands.
Yet another older guy who was a game shoot syndicate member on lands that also held fallow insisted on shooting fallow with his shotgun using old Home Guard round ball cartridges despite having a .243win rifle. He bought the rifle "just to keep the police happy" (his words) but would much prefer to use his shotgun. In fact he still had the majority of the original 20 cartridges that he bought with the rifle still left after several years of ownership but insisted that he had tested the rifle and that he could hit a fag packet at about 100 yards with it despite the rifle having neither scope or iron sights. As for deer seasons he had never heard of these but they wouldn't apply anyway as it was private ground he was shooting over. It's been a few years since I last met him and I doubt, or rather hope, that he has given up his guns if he is still around because he certainly isn't/wasn't the safest to be around either.
Having seen a little bit of the system in France that has been operated by the regional shooting organisations in France for many years (Permis de Chasse) I was quite impressed by how it appeared to work as long as the local associations complied with the rules and regulations.
I might have suggested that this may be worth looking as the basis for direction at some future time if we are to avoid problems. However I understand that there have been increasing numbers of serious shooting incidents in the last 18 months to two years caused by carelessness, incompetence or complacency on the part of both shooters and shoot organisers. I also read that a form of re-validation of permits has been proposed or have been implemented and that refresher courses may be compulsory. Of course a lot of this ties in with insurance in France but just consider how many shooters in the U.K. are uninsured!
Unfortunately that creates a one rule for one and another rule for everyone else scenario, there’s nothing to prove that these older folk with self taught experience still actually know what they’re doing,as you say, you know plenty that you wouldn’t be near with a firearm as they haven’t been safe with them. You can’t Tar all new entrants/youngsters with the same brush to say that they haven’t been given correct instruction by their peers or educate themselves correctly and that they should be forced to take compulsory training. I believe if you go down that route then you should be saying that everyone who holds a firearm should be forced to take training, regardless of how long they have been shooting
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
My view is that if they are knowledgeable then they should easily be able to do just the assessment and walk it - the whole course isn’t hard, total novices learn it and pass from absolute scratch in less than 2 days so an experienced stalker shouldn’t have a problem and it’s not that expensive.
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Alan,
If they make it mandatory, would existing firearms certificate holders be exempt/Grandfathered?
There are quite a lot of “Experienced” shooters/ stalkers out and about that are downright dangerous and I’ve seen it first hand.
Perhaps start with a clean sheet and make everybody take a competence test?
Just because you’ve been doing it a long time, doesn’t mean you’re safe.
Ken.
PS. I shoulda read Tikkat3xl’s post before typing, apologies.
However much it may be disliked, a shooting proficiency/safety test will do none of use any harm, and may potentially ameliorate some of the anti-firearms feeling that exists within the UK. Even those who are not anti have a dislike and a mistrust of firearms, so it would do no harm to show that all who possess have demonstrated safe handling.
I don’t know, good point worth discussing.
I had only been thinking in terms of prior to being granted a SGC or FAC. But I have looked down too many barrels to think grandads should automatically be allowed to carry on apparently oblivious to the fact they are putting others at risk!
I wonder what they did when driving tests or gas fitters qualifications were introduced?
I wouldn’t fear being tested personally. If I didn’t past muster, I would rather find out in a safety assessment, than after having caused an injury through ignorance.
Alan
Curious argument.
Are you saying that because of of some idiot drivers, we should do away with driving tests altogether?
Do you think the system of lessons and driving tests make the standard of driving better or worse overall?
Alan
Morkai
Well-Known Member
No, not get rid of them, just that it doesnt really solve the issues of weaning out the idiots.
Any suggestions as to what would be a better system? Which preferably could also be applied to firearms?
Alan
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Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
Due to the fact that I have passed the test - I am in favour of this as a proposal. I would imagine most of the detractors would be those who haven’t done the test, which is entirely understandable.
Perhaps the mentoring condition that is already applied to new, inexperienced firearms licences…this allows an experienced/proven safe firearms user to impart their knowledge and skills into an inexperienced user and only when they have proven to be safe, are they allowed to use a rifle on their own? Eliminating the need for a test while still gaining hands on practical experience
Morkai
Well-Known Member
Just to be devils advocate.........how do you know the mentor is safe??
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Agree, to a certain extent, but, there are some that passed the DSC1 that still need some help/advice when amongst others when firearms are present.
A lot of safety is common sense, but as everyone knows, it’s not really common.
Ken.
PS.
I came very close to being shot with a shotgun at around 6 metres in the early ‘80s, apart from that I’ve observed several incidents where people out rifling have done dangerous things but not threatened my safety.
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