Ivermectin, for the interested

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My, admittedly somewhat exasperated, post, was in response to references to Dr. Campbell's recent video as contributing much to the ivermectin debate, if you can call it that.

What I got from that was that he sees the development of other drugs is largely motivated by the greed of big pharma, rather than to develop improved treatments. I, to an extent, disagree.

New drug development is a hugely complicated and expensive business, which is largely undertaken by the private sector, and sometimes collaboration with academic researchers. Such as the Astra Zenica collaboration with Oxford University. There is not infinite resource to do this, and probably other promising drug developments for quite different conditions will have had to have been de-emphasised for the moment. Somehow this work has to be paid for, with the prospect of an eventual recoupment, and dare I say even profit.

Ivermectin is another case in point, and would not have happened without big pharma.

I see him as a commentator, and educator, who has come to public prominence via. youtube, who must spend a great deal of time gathering information, filtering it, then presents his own interpretations of it. Much of it informative, some less so. This a useful thing to do, but there is a danger to the viewer in then jumping to one's own conclusions.

I do not follow him, just dip in and out occasionally. Frankly I don't have the time, or the interest, unless there seems to be some significant new development occurring.

Like it or not, a lot of the public debate is formed by personality politics. And any of us are entitled to form our own views of such personalities.

My minor quibble is that in presenting himself as "Dr." to which title he is of course entitled by virtue of his PhD. this may be misinterpreted by some who might think that he is a "medical doctor", as in the sort of person qualified to treat patients for conditions in their area of speciality.

His record is impressive. You can read it yourself, e.g. his profile at Bath University, John Campbell

I think that there is a place for all therapies, using generics, repurposed currently in-patent, and novel drugs, as and when rigorously constructed trials have delivered findings, initially preliminary of course. Meanwhile the use of Ivermectin as a short term treatment for symptomatic patients, and as a short term prophylaxis of their contacts, seems well worth continuing.

Although the UK has been pioneering in exploring other drug therapies, putting them into use, and continues to be so

However I do have my doubts about self-medication as a long term prophylactic. AFAIK that is not how it has been used in the past, for humans, so anyone doing so themselves I think is just as much venturing into the unknown as those of us being treated with new vaccines. Except that the vaccines are being subjected to rigorous scrutiny, and unexpected side effects emerge, long term efficacy etc. are constantly being studied.

Not so for those pursuing their own theories, e.g. self medicating long term with whatever dose of Ivermectin that they have decided to use on themselves as a human guinea-pig. Never mind evangelising to encourage others, family, friends, acquaintances etc. to do so as well.

Even worse would be to think that doing so is somehow an alternative to accepting vaccination.

Also, consider, what if such a person was to develop some mysterious condition, unrelated, or not, then present themselves to their GP. Are they going to tell them about their ingestion of Ivermectin, in case that might have some bearing on it. Or keep silent for whatever reason ?
 
Twaddle
However I do have my doubts about self-medication as a long term prophylactic. AFAIK that is not how it has been used in the past, for humans, so anyone doing so themselves I think is just as much venturing into the unknown as those of us being treated with new vaccines. Except that the vaccines are being subjected to rigorous scrutiny, and unexpected side effects emerge, long term efficacy etc. are constantly being studied.
Tell that to the people of eg Papua New Guinea, (9 million population) who have been the subject of a thus far ten year programme to prevent River Blindness, involving pretty much everyone taking ivermectin:
B71EDD55-F469-4D5A-9B71-5EB7014FA96F.jpeg

I find it hard to imagine you are somehow comparing a medicine with a forty year safety record second to none with the current crop of mRNA so-called vaccines, the latter of which has by now an ’impressive’ list of Adverse Reaction reports worldwide. The mechanism of action, as well as the recommended dosage of ivermectin are both completely clear.

As for what ifs: would a drowning man clutch at a straw? The parallels with your line of argument and the reality of the situation where ivermectin is used around the world seem to suggest so.
 
My, admittedly somewhat exasperated, post, was in response to references to Dr. Campbell's recent video as contributing much to the ivermectin debate, if you can call it that.

What I got from that was that he sees the development of other drugs is largely motivated by the greed of big pharma, rather than to develop improved treatments. I, to an extent, disagree.

New drug development is a hugely complicated and expensive business, which is largely undertaken by the private sector, and sometimes collaboration with academic researchers. Such as the Astra Zenica collaboration with Oxford University. There is not infinite resource to do this, and probably other promising drug developments for quite different conditions will have had to have been de-emphasised for the moment. Somehow this work has to be paid for, with the prospect of an eventual recoupment, and dare I say even profit.

Ivermectin is another case in point, and would not have happened without big pharma.

I see him as a commentator, and educator, who has come to public prominence via. youtube, who must spend a great deal of time gathering information, filtering it, then presents his own interpretations of it. Much of it informative, some less so. This a useful thing to do, but there is a danger to the viewer in then jumping to one's own conclusions.

I do not follow him, just dip in and out occasionally. Frankly I don't have the time, or the interest, unless there seems to be some significant new development occurring.
Good to see a less acidic post .
He continually states that you must form your own conclusions, and always lists sources/links, he stresses when it it is his opinion or someone elses.
This is the difference between TELLING someone what to do , or asking them to do something based on sound knowledge or common sense.
My minor quibble is that in presenting himself as "Dr." to which title he is of course entitled by virtue of his PhD. this may be misinterpreted by some who might think that he is a "medical doctor", as in the sort of person qualified to treat patients for conditions in their area of speciality.
Anyone who has a real interest in what he is saying , should have the ability to check his credentials out.
I personally dont believe being a medical doctor bestows vast wisdom, when in my experience, nursing leads have often advised , and occasionally prevented a doctors foul ups.
His record is impressive. You can read it yourself, e.g. his profile at Bath University, John Campbell
Sadly , that is a different Dr J Campbell, otherwise coupled together , their experience would doubly impressive.
Not so for those pursuing their own theories, e.g. self medicating long term with whatever dose of Ivermectin that they have decided to use on themselves as a human guinea-pig. Never mind evangelising to encourage others, family, friends, acquaintances etc. to do so as well.

Even worse would be to think that doing so is somehow an alternative to accepting vaccination.
Again , Campbell insists that vaccines are a good thing, but advocates a multi level strategy to fight covid, including antivirals , mask wear and social distancing.
As a medical professional he would be negligent if he did anything different.
His dig at Pharma costs are his own personal opinion , and as you say drug R and D is not without significant cost, but without being pedantic , remdesivir and molnupirivir were developed many years ago, but had no where to go in as much , 'a need' for them, pretty much the same as mRNA vaccines did not have a need, and yet here we are , a random selection of drugs that all of a sudden, are essential to fighting a disease that seemingly came from nowhere ?
Developed (to fight covid) and tested in double quick time , and with a selection of mandates that make refusing to take (the vaccine) very difficult, even the most non conspiratorial mind must think twice surely ?
The ivermectin debate, and the concerted effort to debunk any benefits thereof via media and some governments, is simply a side line.
 
Just to add something to consider.

Resistance to Ivermectin, used against parasitic infections, is being observed. If this becomes a thing, it has the potential to impact the the use of this most valuable, seemingly only highly effective drug, for this usage.

I am making no connection with the population-scale use of the stuff for anti-SARS Cov 2 application, that would be far fetched. At the moment.

E.g. see Ivermectin resistance in nematodes may be caused by alteration of P-glycoprotein homolog - PubMed

Resistance to ivermectin and related drugs is an increasing problem for parasite control. The mechanism of ivermectin resistance in nematode parasites is currently unknown.
 
Twaddle

Tell that to the people of eg Papua New Guinea, (9 million population)
Home to over 700 lanuage groups and a place where they were practicing cannabilism until very recently.

You have some neck to accuse anyone of twaddle. :rofl:

You specialise in twaddle so much you might yet get called for an honuary doctorate because of it, imagine the twaddling you could do then?
 
Home to over 700 lanuage groups and a place where they were practicing cannabilism until very recently.
What the multiple languages have to do with it Im not sure, but are you seriously saying that the population of PNG were 'until recently' practicing cannibalism ?

Or did you really mean there was a known example of cannibalism as late as 2012 in one remote tribe on PNG ?
Quite what this isolated incident has to do with ivermectin use is anyones guess, but I will ponder the fact that you think PNGs 9 million inhabitants tend to eat each other, whilst partaking in suicide rituals involving the use of 'deadly dangerous ' horse wormers.

Whatever , if a measure of a societies savagery is if it involves eating their fellow man or not , I will refer you to many British and Irish inner city areas on the weekend , where fights involving ear and nose pie can often be witnessed,
Clutching at straws to justify some sort of equivalence from there to here, seems rather a stretch too far.
I believe he was trying to show long term use of ivermectin for its anti parasitical purpose has no issues, so therefore it shouldnt be an issue for long term covid use.
 
I suspect that Freeforester has muddled up the Ivermectin program to reduce parasitic infections there, with supposed Covid stats, and whatever, then tries to put it forward as an exemplar of how it works. Whilst never having bothered to understand what's going on on the ground, most of which is way beyond their government's control, or ability to monitor.

I am guilty of not being particularly interested about Papua New Guinea. Nor have any desire to visit it.

I daresay that the good Dr Campbell might make his own wry, ironic, cynical or otherwise observations with plenty of not so subtle innuendo, laced with "just my thoughts, look up the details yourself and form your own opinion etc." about that far-away place, if he considered it of interest. To his viewers.
 
I daresay that the good Dr Campbell might make his own wry, ironic, cynical or otherwise observations with plenty of not so subtle innuendo, laced with "just my thoughts, look up the details yourself and form your own opinion etc." about that far-away place, if he considered it of interest. To his viewers.

And you were doing so well . . . .:D
 
Must admit 1 thing i really cant understand ( and there are a few things about this whole panademic)


Is why do some of the western countries not just do some proper trials with invermectin on Covid??
Plenty patients with virus, hte drug IS safe don't think there is any doubt about that and it has a long history of being safe.
The only question mark is wether or not it actually works to prevent/kill covid.

it should be relevantly easy to set up a 'proper' peer reviewed study relatively easily and cheaply and put this to bed 1 way or other

I also dont really understand why folk are getting quite so worked up about it either?
Do u get so worked up about people the smoke, drink alcohol or overweight?
All quite likely to increase ur chances of being unwell or developing cancer, i see recent tv adds saying 50% of us will now get cancer in our lifes.
Dont see the government locking us down in our houses with no fags, booze and only salad to eat, yet probably more likely to actually save our lives, than dodgy jabs or the current lock downs/covid passport schemes
Or that go mountain biking, sky diving or caving, all likely to be a drain on the nhs .

Not wanting to take health advice from a historian (i think thats wot niel oliver is?) bt his catch line definately has a ring of truth to it on some levels

Ps where do u buy this cheap invermectin at 5c a tab??
I was looking for some the other night and any i could find was 70 or 80 quid
 
I believe he was trying to show long term use of ivermectin for its anti parasitical purpose has no issues, so therefore it shouldnt be an issue for long term covid use.
Just observing the ‘temporal correlation’ where ivermectin is in use, and coincidentally where Covid has an unusually lesser impact, much like Dr Hibberd did, repeated here from early in the thread:


 
@countrryboy asks some very sensible questions. A couple of thoughts from me in response...

It is not just western countries that could undertake RCTs to demonstrate the effectiveness of Ivermectin. Much has been made of the use of Ivermectin in India - a country that (unlike the UK for instance) has its own space programme. India is well placed and more than capable of conducting RCTs to the highest standards. And yet the official position of the Indian Government remains that Ivermectin should not be used to treat/prevent CV19.

I don't know why RCTs have not already settled this issue. But I don't believe it is because Big Pharma somehow won't let it happen - that doesn't seem plausible to me. I just don't believe it is in anyone's interest, or indeed gift, to suppress an effective cure for CV19 in this way.

As someone who has been getting a bit worked up about this, let me also offer my perspective on why - as I can see that I risk looking more than a little mad at times.

I understand that being pro-Ivermectin is not the same thing as being anti-vax. Some people (including some on SD) who support the use of Ivermectin also support the vaccination role out. I get that.

However, in my view, the Ivermectin narrative is bound up with a narrative that opposes vaccination on grounds that are entirely spurious. And, as a result, are dangerous and ought to be challenged.

The vaccines do not prevent transmission but they do reduce it. The recent Imperial study which drew so much attention because it highlighted the former also demonstrated the latter point as well. Most significantly, the vaccines dramatically reduce the chance of death, serious illness or long-term complications as a result of CV19. They are allowing society to reopen and live with the virus - rather than risk dying from it.

The vaccination programme is saving thousands of lives in this country.

As a 52 year old white man in reasonably good health my chances of surviving CV19 without a vaccine are pretty good. (As it happens I have actually had Covid - twice! - and been double jabbed but I work in a very high risk environment and it comes with the territory.)

But I believe we all have a responsibility for others in the society in which we live - others who are older or who have underlying health conditions or are just unlucky enough to get really ill or be left with Covid's potentially debilitating aftermath.

That's why I have some skin in this particular game. I want to see people vaccinated because the alternative is seeing people die.

Not everyone who advocates the use of Ivermectin in relation to Covid is a boggle-eyed conspiracy theorist. But much of the evidence in support of Ivermectin is being circulated by those who are - and they are doing it to stir up anti-vax sentiment and frighten people. They are doing it because of their fears about Big Pharma and a wide and wild range of other anxieties most of which the vast majority of us regard as ludicrous.

I am all for objectively scrutinising the evidence. But this is a complex issue - and the evidence is easy misunderstood and misinterpreted particularly by those who are looking to simplify it.
 
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He must’ve heard the mutterings…


Thank you for that. Do I detect that some scales might be falling from your eyes ?

Peak twaddle ? Well, he has to keep on putting out his stuff for at least 20 minutes (it's a youtubery thing, suck you in to watching all the way through for at least 20 minutes. and you get even more incentivised).

His character defects, or at least my gentle observations about how he conducts himself, are to the fore here.

Would I invite him to a dinner party ?

How long can he keep this up ?
 
Cheers jason.

A good response, as usual.

I can see why ur involved in this debate as without out u it would just be an echo chamber of how great invermectin is with no alternative or anyone holding any 'facts' up to scrutiny.

So cheers for sticking with it, althou i dont know where u and others find the time to reply to this thread alone, never mind the time to find these clips and read studies on the net.
I can barely find the time to follow this thread, :lol:
So fair play to u all :thumb::tiphat:


I only really mentioned western countries doing a study just so wot ever its finding where they could be believed and stand up to peer reviewing and while it should take more than 1 study a few very similar studies with similar methodology in different countries should easy iron out any anomalies .

I have no idea if i'm right or wrong but in some of the more under developed countries where life expectancy is shorter, and possibly the general population is generally fitter possibly they have far fewer truely succeptable to covid and likely to die, so invermectin may not be doing any good at all, just looks that way.
Again just my own theory but locally covid just seems so random half a family will catch it while the other half won't wether jabbed or not, a wagon drivr was telling me his daughter whos a nurse and unjabbed, her ward came down with it and she was 1 of the few who didn't catch it, And no invermectin in sight either.
I just think some folk ar emore prone to catching it than others for some unknown reason jabbed or not, u just have to hope ur a lucky 1
I think the death rate will decrease with each wave simply due to the more elderly/folk under lying health issues who are genetically prone to catching it are already deid.
Just like rabbits with mixy, high death rate 1st wave then less each time as they get more natrual immunity to it and the weak/vulnerable are already dead

I just can't understand why studies where not carried out right at the start when there would be a mad panic trying to find useful medicines before any vaccines had been found..

And there is no doubt a theory like this does bring out the internet tin hat conspiracy theory nut jobs there does seem to be a fair enough amount of 'experts' that actually are experts in this fields and seem to talk some sense, but i do realise they could be on there own agenda's too ( althou so could the 'big pharma, or even some of these big orgs, possibly arse covering or internal politics) but it could so easily be put to bed once and for all.

Althou even if it was put to bed i dare say another drug/theory would soon take its place, bleach injection anyone???b😀 :doh:


Rightly or wrongly i'm un jabbed and to be honest can't get my head round the whole vaccination/booster thing.
Had my flu jab once years ago and never again.
I do have asthma and not as young as i was but not a auld foggy yet either so i really don't want to be catching it for my personal health, but in my opinion i'll be little risk of spreading it to others as i have a pretty physical job and with my asthma i'll probably not be asymptomatic and struggle to keep working physically so will not be going visiting folk.
But i also live and work in the sticks pretty socially distanced anyway so a very low risk environment, if i lived and worked in a big city and using public transport i might have a different opinion

There just seems far too many questions about long term effects that just can't possibly be answered when the drugs are so new.

And as for protecting others again i just don't get it, from my basic laymens understanding of this virus most of the problem with it is so many folk are asyptomatic with it so spreading it unwittingly, if the vaccine still allows u to catch and spread it i'd imagine the chances of u being asympotmatic are even higher so ur more likely to spread it. to others as it lessens the viruses effects.

I do get it lessens the severity of it and be less likely to need hospital treatment, but again for a virus thats 99.99% survivable and the average age of someone dying from it is older than ur average life expectancy anyway
I would argue is it really worth it?
And as for the way these covid passports are going, forcing u to have the jags is wrong esp in a country where u can still legally buy booze and fags which actually damage ur health.

But letting folk travel for a holiday to foreign countries is just absolute madness in my opinion, jabbed or not, the vaccine is not as effective against delta strain if a new strain is brought in from abroad ( which is only a matter of time now, in my opinion, well we couldn't stop covid from getting here in the 1st place even when it was 1st big news) and the vaccine offers little or no help wot do we do??
Back to full panic lock downs ??

Must admit i still think my daft idea i said right back at the start is still the best, well mibbe not the best but would've of worked, when the hospitals were quiet and we were in full lock down they should of let healthy 20-40 year old volanteers, all go to butlins/big hotel for a 2 week holiday/bender, get them all infected in a semi controlled environment with some nurses on standby monitoring for the small % that might need assistance.
The rest can just party away if they're fit enough and gets a lot of herd immunity built up quickly
 
Thank you for that. Do I detect that some scales might be falling from your eyes ?

Peak twaddle ? Well, he has to keep on putting out his stuff for at least 20 minutes (it's a youtubery thing, suck you in to watching all the way through for at least 20 minutes. and you get even more incentivised).

His character defects, or at least my gentle observations about how he conducts himself, are to the fore here.

Would I invite him to a dinner party ?

How long can he keep this up ?
It really is amazing how you find your takeaway from what he is explaining that you posit; the message he delivers demonstrates the equivalence of the in silico explanation as to how both ivermectin and Pfizer’s ‘new kid’ function, and in the way that much if not most new drugs are being designed, and yet you see only confirmation bias; in the earlier video, he gives (not his) the Royal Society of Chemistry‘s evidence/findings of how ivermectin inhibits the mechanisms by which the virus replicates in the body, and you see nothing of interest, much in the same ways you disregard the clearly visible observational evidence in countries where, for whatever reasons be they river blindness prevention, scabies control or in the case of Uttar Pradesh the simple desire to prevent viral reproduction in the community.

I get that he is not your choice of dinner party guest, he’d certainly challenge the confirmation bias against the current (failing) strategy. Look at all the Western world countries vaccines up to the max and yet no reduction in viral load, quite the reverse.
How would you explain away the dramatic reduction of viral circulation in the countries and areas where ivermectin has, by happy coincidence or otherwise, been deployed?

Are you sure you’re not working too hard?

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some of the more under developed countries where life expectancy is shorter, and possibly the general population is generally fitter possibly they have far fewer truely succeptable to covid and likely to die, so invermectin may not be doing any good at all, just looks that way.
I think you make a good point here. I think you can also factor in wide variations in reporting (of confirmed cases and deaths) and also climate - it is possible that a respiratory illness such as CV19 will have less imapct hot, wet countries than it will in cold wet countries. Hence the annual winter increase in influenza in the UK. My point here is that we cannot say that Ivermectin isn't responsible for reducing cases in countries such as India. But we need to be very cautious about saying that it is. It's the old distinction between correlation and causation. In the UK sales of ice-cream increase every summer and, at exactly the same time, we see a sudden spike in the number of drownings. But it would be wrong to conclude from these well documented facts that people were drowning because they were eating too much ice-cream.

I just can't understand why studies where not carried out right at the start when there would be a mad panic trying to find useful medicines before any vaccines had been found..
Don't have an answer for that one. Imagine what a boost it would be to the reputation of a research facility (and what a boost it would give to its funding streams) if it could demonstrate through peer-reviewed double-blind RCT's that a readily available out-of-patent, widely recognised and cheaply available existing drug was effective against CV19. It would be a remarkable achievement. I suspect that the reason this happened is that those who could conduct this research don't believe it lead to this result.
althou so could the 'big pharma, or even some of these big orgs, possibly arse covering or internal politics
Fair point. Without doubt, governments and big corporations do exert an awful lot of energy trying to cover their tracks. However, I believe that - for the most part - big agencies are dreadfully bad at this. Our own government, I think, is good example of my point - it is simply too big and too complex to do anything (including cover its own tracks) very well for very long.

And as for protecting others again i just don't get it, from my basic laymens understanding of this virus most of the problem with it is so many folk are asyptomatic with it so spreading it unwittingly, if the vaccine still allows u to catch and spread it i'd imagine the chances of u being asympotmatic are even higher so ur more likely to spread it. to others as it lessens the viruses effects.
This is one point on which we do disagree. You (unvaccinated) and I (vaccinated) can both transmit the virus to others. And in fact if we both catch the virus we are equally likely to pass it on to someone else. (This isn't quite true - I might be slightly less likely to pass it on but, overall, the risk we pose to other people is we have both caught the virus is virtually equivalent). But - and this, for me, is the point - although as a vaccinated person I can still catch the virus (and I should know!) I am significantly less likely to catch it than you are as an unvaccinated person. I (vaccinated) can still catch it but you (unvaccinated) are more likely to catch it. And you can only pass on a virus if you catch it. So my reduced chances of catching it, reduce my chances of passing it on to other people.

I do have asthma
I understand that you judge the chance of you catching or transmitting CV19 are low - because of where you live etc. And you are probably right: despite the fact that you have asthma, if you do get CV19, it is unlikley to kill you. But it might. It also might leave you with a long-term debiliating illness. It might mean you are horribly ill for a couple of weeks. Or it might mean you have a cold and bounce back with no complications at all. It's a roll of the dice. And it's your dice to roll.

forcing u to have the jags is wrong
Agree. 100%. I will be first in line protesting against a compulsory vaccination programme.

letting folk travel for a holiday to foreign countries is just absolute madness
Agree. But its a balancing act and I'm not sure how long and how effectively a Government can put a stop to absolute madness. It's what people are all about.

@countrryboy: you and I come at this from different perspectives and we take different views on some fundamental points but there's a lot that I respect and completely agree with in your position and the very sensible terms in which you put it.
 
Home to over 700 lanuage groups and a place where they were practicing cannabilism until very recently.

You have some neck to accuse anyone of twaddle. :rofl:

You specialise in twaddle so much you might yet get called for an honuary doctorate because of it, imagine the twaddling you could do then?
 
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