Maximum point blank range

R. Macleod & Son - The Best Hunting Companion
1.8 inch high for the 25-45, 6.5x55, .280 and .223.

Dead on at 200 (which is almost the same thing) for the .308 and 6.5 creedmoor.

Dead on at 100 for the hornet and BA WMR at 100, at 80 for the SA WMR.
 
Favourite method. I use a ballistic c
dodgyknees said:
As has been noted already, 1 or 2 inches high at a hundred is not MPBR.

Following the MPBR process - i.e. the arithmetic part - is an interesting exercise. It does of course require you to have a accurate knowledge of your ballistics, it is not something you can work out accurately with a guesstimate. You need to have triple checked your muzzle velocity and BC at range with drop tests.

There are two fundamental problems with MPBR.

Firstly, MPBR conflicts with the “aim small, miss small” principle. The MPBR principal works on a “near enough is good enough basis” which can have major implications when working close to your calculated maximum range. Because the principal assumes that you are going to aim at the same point on the animal irrespective of range, there is in my experience an increased risk of the bullet striking slightly too low. I’ve done this myself using the MPBR principle with my .308 Win; after years of holding over using a BDC reticle, I tried MPBR and found that I didn’t like the lack of fine control on point of impact.

On one occasion I remember very clearly I shot a red stag at 255yds (the MPBR is 257yds), using a Zeiss duplex reticle on a high quality scope that I decided I needed for improved lowlight transmission. Although I was 100% confident I had the crosshair right on the centre of the 6” vitals zone, the 3½” drop was enough to break the leg and pass through the top of the brisket, underneath the hilar zone. The stag run on 3 legs about 30 yards before starting to go round in circles, and needed a second shot. At that range, that is a fail for me.

I’ve discussed MPBR with guys who have selected some unrealistically large target diameters. I do not agree that a red deer has a 12 inch vital zone! What this does is unnecessarily risk bullets impacting far too low, as it stretches the maximum range in the calculation too far in my opinion.

And this brings us onto the effect of wind. At the maximum range calculated by MPBR, you obviously have to take into account wind, which if you are holding for wind means you are inevitably starting to wander away from the centre of your target circle, which can be quite disconcerting for guys who haven’t maybe got the confidence or experience. I’m sure this is one of the reasons that we see too many shots striking too far back on the animal. All of this is far too imprecise for me.

So after a process, I dropped MPBR and reverted to the aim small, miss small concept. Simply put, aim small, miss small is where you compensate for the bullet drop with a calculated (or well considered) hold over at a very specific part of the deer, using a calibrated BDC reticle. (By calibrated I mean that at a specific magnification the reticle subtensions align with nice round numbers in sensible increments like 50m.) If you use ballistic turrets, then you dial in the elevation required.

Aim small, miss small is in my experience considerably more likely to result in the instant bang flop that we crave, out to ranges that some of you guys get all touchy about. Aim small, miss small forces you to take into account all the factors that MPBR seeks to dumb down - animal position (angle), anatomy, wind, drop. Only short-range snap shooting with powerful rifles can really get away with ignoring this stuff.

The second problem with MPBR is that it requires you to zero your rifle at a far greater range than most people are capable of doing. The constraint they usually run into is access to ground that is able to give them a clear, level line of sight. Even here, a nice level 200m can be devilishly hard to come across because of the topography, At least in a place where you can easily walk backwards and forwards to your target. This makes it difficult for a quick field zero check. On my .300 WSM, the MPBR far zero is 243m - it is impractical.

You also have the problem of what kind of groups you are capable of shooting at that range. By the time you’re out to 200-240m, you’ve got wind effects, your shaky hold, and all sorts of other age related ailments to take into consideration. For guys who are used to shooting at 100m at the range, trying to accept the spread at over 200m for a zero can be quite a challenge.

Of course the bullet passes through the line of sight twice, and the “far zero” is the one that we really want to use, as it will far better reflect where the bullet is going to go afterwards. The “near zero” is usually something like 30m in front of you, and in my experience very short zero ranges are useless for longer range shooting. I’ve tried it and consigned it to the rubbish bin.

I will vary my zero distance slightly for each particular rifle / scope combination to best match the ballistics to the reticle so I get those nice round subtension holdovers. On most decent BDC reticles they come closely calibrated to most common cartridges assuming either a 100 yard or 200 yard zero. So my zero ranges are usually very close to one or the other.

So that’s my take on MPBR. It is a sound principle for most close range stalking as long as you are fully aware of the potential for missing the vitals low, when working close to the maximum range, and the need to have access to a place where you can confidently zero your rifle at the calculated distance. But for me I am shooting close to or beyond the maximum range probably 50% of the time.

My vote will be for aim small, miss small every time as it promotes better precision, with consequent improved probability of instant kills.
Click to expand...
Good post!

However, you can use MPBR to get yourself closer to Aim Small, Miss Small by tightening up your MPBR expectations.

It's a principle I adopted for Foxing specifically, and on a smaller target like a fox it starts to make sense, but there is a considerable amount of homework involved as you rightly say.

The phrase " I zero an inch high at 100 yds " makes my teeth itch for so many reasons, mostly because it's a rule of thumb and means the shooter only knows one value, and that is that the round will print an AVERAGE group one inch above an aiming mark at 100 yds. So the round from a cold bore shot will strike anywhere within a 1 inch circle with its centre an inch above the aiming mark, ie from 0.5 inches high to 2.5 inches high, and of course half an inch left to half an inch right and anywhere else on the clockface.

Think about what many people on the SD consider to be an industry standard group size of 1 MOA or better. ....it's what rifle manufactures crow about in their sales blurb, (I'm looking at you Tikka/Sako!!) and then think about how most folk go about determining how tightly the rifle groups - shooting a supported rifle prone or off a bench in ideal conditions, with a relaxed shooter with little or no adrenaline coursing through them. Now add in an adrenaline pumped middle-aged occasional shooter who has just walked or stalked for an hour or more, shooting off sticks, being attacked by midges and I can guarantee that "industry standard" group will open up a smidgen!

So, let's be generous and say that they can get the round to group about two MOA. Now their "inch high at 100 zero" will print a group from bang on the aiming mark to two inches above it. AS I said, that's being generous. It doesn't take much adrenaline or many midges, or stick wobble to open that group up by another inch or even more.

So now let's ask the "inch high at 100" chaps what the drop looks like at 200 yards. The glib, rule of thumb answer is "Everybody knows it'll be about bang on a 200" which of course is nonsense. They simply don't know, or have no way of knowing. The "inch high at 100 " seems to refer to every centrefire calibre in the world, from a 50 gr varmint round to a geet big 30 cal hunting round. Hornady 58 gr V-Max Superformance used to leave the muzzle of my .243 at 3800 fps. Anyone who thinks the trajectory of that round mimics the trajectory of a 150 gr Nosler chucked out of a .308 at 2450 fps needs to go and do a bit of research. If you "Zero" the two rounds at an inch high at 100 you'll have several inches of drop difference at 200 yards. (the .243 round will still be just above the POA , and the .308 will be several inches low)

So, the "inch high at 100" is provably useless unless you know other variables that you need to bring in to play. Those variables are principally the Muzzle Velocity of the round through YOUR rifle, NOT what it says on the box, NOT what "Chris the expert" says on Facebook (other fantasist gobshites are available) but rather what YOUR chosen round reads on a reliable chronograph, through YOUR rifle.

Next, you need to know the weight and Ballistic Coefficient of your chosen round (or the 4dOF data) This is available on the box or online.

Next you need to accurately measure the exact height of the centreline of your scope above the centre of the bore of your rifle.

Next, you need to understand what the trajectory curve of a bullet looks like, and understand that at ANY zero, there will be a curve that comes up from underneath the line of sight, (in other words the bullet starts off underneath the scope) then curves up to or above the ACTUAL zero, then drops away underneath it. (see the diagram posted on page one of the thread)

Knowing that and knowing the principles of MPBR we want to find a curve that we can use effectively for field shooting. We have to remember that our group will open up to two MOA on a good day, so to put a bullet into a a 4 inch circle from 40 yards out to say 150-175 yards (sensible stalking distances for the out-of-breath, adrenaline-pumped middle-aged recreational shooter under attack from midges on a set of wobbly sticks) we need to see a curve where for a given zero, the round won't rise much above 1 inch anywhere along the line of sight, to 1 inch below it, crossing through a secondary zero point as it does so. However, given our 2 MOA real-world group limitations, we understand that the inch low group average centre past the secondary zero could be as much as three inches low if it's out to 200 yards (2 MOA at 200 yds being 4 inches give or take) and this could mean a low miss or a clipped brisket on a roe deer. Better then to simply look for the secondary zero, in order to eliminate margin for error.

Here's how we can exploit the curve, and to do it we need a ballistic calculator. We input the MV, BC, sight height into the variable fields. Using what we know we choose the zero range, and ask for outputs every 25 yards out to say 300 yards.

The results will give us an idea of what that curve will look like, and how best we can exploit it to give a usable MPBR. We can use the primary zero to adjust the nature of the curve. It may be that for YOUR given round, zeroed at 40 yards the curve will be on at 40, cresting one inch high at around yards, back on secondary zero at 175 yds. You can note the results and then set a different primary zero, to say 50 yds, which will flatten the curve slightly, so cresting at say 125 yards and dropping to secondary zero at 180 yds. This is what to look for...... the maximum point above the line of sight to the point where it re-crosses.

The faster and flatter the round, the further out that primary zero will be to give a crest value within acceptable limits, and thus the further out the secondary zero will be. For example my .308 is zeroed at 40 yds, crests 1.5 inches at 100 and hits secondary zero at 175 yds. I can therefore confidently say that I can use point of aim to hit a deer anywhere from where the scope can focus to 175 yards away knowing the round will strike within an inch or two of the crosshair.

Once you have found your ideal theoretical curve, go and put targets up every 25 yards out to 175 yards and confirm you've got it right by shooting and checking the way the round behaves.

Be realistic and don't forget your limitations. Using the theory won't make you American Sniper/Wyatt Earp overnight, so lose some weight and take a can of smidge with you if you want to tighten your groups up...... there's some very good reasons why the recreational stalker is advised to shoot no further than 150 yds or so.
 
Last edited:
Scapegoat said:
Favourite method. I use a ballistic c

Good post!

However, you can use MPBR to get yourself closer to Aim Small, Miss Small by tightening up your MPBR expectations.

It's a principle I adopted for Foxing specifically, and on a smaller target like a fox it starts to make sense, but there is a considerable amount of homework involved as you rightly say.

The phrase " I zero an inch high at 100 yds " makes my teeth itch for so many reasons, mostly because it's a rule of thumb and means the shooter only knows one value, and that is that the round will print an AVERAGE group one inch above an aiming mark at 100 yds. So the round from a cold bore shot will strike anywhere within a 1 inch circle with its centre an inch above the aiming mark, ie from 0.5 inches high to 2.5 inches high, and of course half an inch left to half an inch right and anywhere else on the clockface.

Think about what many people on the SD consider to be an industry standard group size of 1 MOA or better. ....it's what rifle manufactures crow about in their sales blurb, (I'm looking at you Tikka/Sako!!) and then think about how most folk go about determining how tightly the rifle groups - shooting a supported rifle prone or off a bench in ideal conditions, with a relaxed shooter with little or no adrenaline coursing through them. Now add in an adrenaline pumped middle-aged occasional shooter who has just walked or stalked for an hour or more, shooting off sticks, being attacked by midges and I can guarantee that "industry standard" group will open up a smidgen!

So, let's be generous and say that they can get the round to group about two MOA. Now their "inch high at 100 zero" will print a group from bang on the aiming mark to two inches above it. AS I said, that's being generous. It doesn't take much adrenaline or many midges, or stick wobble to open that group up by another inch or even more.

So now let's ask the "inch high at 100" chaps what the drop looks like at 200 yards. The glib, rule of thumb answer is "Everybody knows it'll be about bang on a 200" which of course is nonsense. They simply don't know, or have no way of knowing. The "inch high at 100 " seems to refer to every centrefire calibre in the world, from a 50 gr varmint round to a geet big 30 cal hunting round. Hornady 58 gr V-Max Superformance used to leave the muzzle of my .243 at 3800 fps. Anyone who thinks the trajectory of that round mimics the trajectory of a 150 gr Nosler chucked out of a .308 at 2450 fps needs to go and do a bit of research. If you "Zero" the two rounds at an inch high at 100 you'll have several inches of drop difference at 200 yards. (the .243 round will still be just above the POA , and the .308 will be several inches low)

So, the "inch high at 100" is provably useless unless you know other variables that you need to bring in to play. Those variables are principally the Muzzle Velocity of the round through YOUR rifle, NOT what it says on the box, NOT what "Chris the expert" says on Facebook (other fantasist gobshites are available) but rather what YOUR chosen round reads on a reliable chronograph, through YOUR rifle.

Next, you need to know the weight and Ballistic Coefficient of your chosen round (or the 4dOF data) This is available on the box or online.

Next you need to accurately measure the exact height of the centreline of your scope above the centre of the bore of your rifle.

Next, you need to understand what the trajectory curve of a bullet looks like, and understand that at ANY zero, there will be a curve that comes up from underneath the line of sight, (in other words the bullet starts off underneath the scope) then curves up to or above the ACTUAL zero, then drops away underneath it. (see the diagram posted on page one of the thread)

Knowing that and knowing the principles of MPBR we want to find a curve that we can use effectively for field shooting. We have to remember that our group will open up to two MOA on a good day, so to put a bullet into a a 4 inch circle from 40 yards out to say 150-175 yards (sensible stalking distances for the out-of-breath, adrenaline-pumped middle-aged recreational shooter under attack from midges on a set of wobbly sticks) we need to see a curve where for a given zero, the round won't rise much above 1 inch anywhere along the line of sight, to 1 inch below it, crossing through a secondary zero point as it does so. However, given our 2 MOA real-world group limitations, we understand that the inch low group average centre past the secondary zero could be as much as three inches low if it's out to 200 yards (2 MOA at 200 yds being 4 inches give or take) and this could mean a low miss or a clipped brisket on a roe deer. Better then to simply look for the secondary zero, in order to eliminate margin for error.

Here's how we can exploit the curve, and to do it we need a ballistic calculator. We input the MV, BC, sight height into the variable fields. Using what we know we choose the zero range, and ask for outputs every 25 yards out to say 300 yards.

The results will give us an idea of what that curve will look like, and how best we can exploit it to give a usable MPBR. We can use the primary zero to adjust the nature of the curve. It may be that for YOUR given round, zeroed at 40 yards the curve will be on at 40, cresting one inch high at around yards, back on secondary zero at 175 yds. You can note the results and then set a different primary zero, to say 50 yds, which will flatten the curve slightly, so cresting at say 125 yards and dropping to secondary zero at 180 yds. This is what to look for...... the maximum point above the line of sight to the point where it re-crosses.

The faster and flatter the round, the further out that primary zero will be to give a crest value within acceptable limits, and thus the further out the secondary zero will be. For example my .308 is zeroed at 40 yds, crests 1.5 inches at 100 and hits secondary zero at 175 yds. I can therefore confidently say that I can use point of aim to hit a deer anywhere from where the scope can focus to 175 yards away knowing the round will strike within an inch or two of the crosshair.

Once you have found your ideal theoretical curve, go and put targets up every 25 yards out to 175 yards and confirm you've got it right by shooting and checking the way the round behaves.

Be realistic and don't forget your limitations. Using the theory won't make you American Sniper/Wyatt Earp overnight, so lose some weight and take a can of smidge with you if you want to tighten your groups up...... there's some very good reasons why the recreational stalker is advised to shoot no further than 150 yds or so.
Click to expand...
Excellent thanks , I'll be mostly foxing using this method 👍
 
Scapegoat said:
Favourite method. I use a ballistic c

Good post!

However, you can use MPBR to get yourself closer to Aim Small, Miss Small by tightening up your MPBR expectations.

It's a principle I adopted for Foxing specifically, and on a smaller target like a fox it starts to make sense, but there is a considerable amount of homework involved as you rightly say.

The phrase " I zero an inch high at 100 yds " makes my teeth itch for so many reasons, mostly because it's a rule of thumb and means the shooter only knows one value, and that is that the round will print an AVERAGE group one inch above an aiming mark at 100 yds. So the round from a cold bore shot will strike anywhere within a 1 inch circle with its centre an inch above the aiming mark, ie from 0.5 inches high to 2.5 inches high, and of course half an inch left to half an inch right and anywhere else on the clockface.

Think about what many people on the SD consider to be an industry standard group size of 1 MOA or better. ....it's what rifle manufactures crow about in their sales blurb, (I'm looking at you Tikka/Sako!!) and then think about how most folk go about determining how tightly the rifle groups - shooting a supported rifle prone or off a bench in ideal conditions, with a relaxed shooter with little or no adrenaline coursing through them. Now add in an adrenaline pumped middle-aged occasional shooter who has just walked or stalked for an hour or more, shooting off sticks, being attacked by midges and I can guarantee that "industry standard" group will open up a smidgen!

So, let's be generous and say that they can get the round to group about two MOA. Now their "inch high at 100 zero" will print a group from bang on the aiming mark to two inches above it. AS I said, that's being generous. It doesn't take much adrenaline or many midges, or stick wobble to open that group up by another inch or even more.

So now let's ask the "inch high at 100" chaps what the drop looks like at 200 yards. The glib, rule of thumb answer is "Everybody knows it'll be about bang on a 200" which of course is nonsense. They simply don't know, or have no way of knowing. The "inch high at 100 " seems to refer to every centrefire calibre in the world, from a 50 gr varmint round to a geet big 30 cal hunting round. Hornady 58 gr V-Max Superformance used to leave the muzzle of my .243 at 3800 fps. Anyone who thinks the trajectory of that round mimics the trajectory of a 150 gr Nosler chucked out of a .308 at 2450 fps needs to go and do a bit of research. If you "Zero" the two rounds at an inch high at 100 you'll have several inches of drop difference at 200 yards. (the .243 round will still be just above the POA , and the .308 will be several inches low)

So, the "inch high at 100" is provably useless unless you know other variables that you need to bring in to play. Those variables are principally the Muzzle Velocity of the round through YOUR rifle, NOT what it says on the box, NOT what "Chris the expert" says on Facebook (other fantasist gobshites are available) but rather what YOUR chosen round reads on a reliable chronograph, through YOUR rifle.

Next, you need to know the weight and Ballistic Coefficient of your chosen round (or the 4dOF data) This is available on the box or online.

Next you need to accurately measure the exact height of the centreline of your scope above the centre of the bore of your rifle.

Next, you need to understand what the trajectory curve of a bullet looks like, and understand that at ANY zero, there will be a curve that comes up from underneath the line of sight, (in other words the bullet starts off underneath the scope) then curves up to or above the ACTUAL zero, then drops away underneath it. (see the diagram posted on page one of the thread)

Knowing that and knowing the principles of MPBR we want to find a curve that we can use effectively for field shooting. We have to remember that our group will open up to two MOA on a good day, so to put a bullet into a a 4 inch circle from 40 yards out to say 150-175 yards (sensible stalking distances for the out-of-breath, adrenaline-pumped middle-aged recreational shooter under attack from midges on a set of wobbly sticks) we need to see a curve where for a given zero, the round won't rise much above 1 inch anywhere along the line of sight, to 1 inch below it, crossing through a secondary zero point as it does so. However, given our 2 MOA real-world group limitations, we understand that the inch low group average centre past the secondary zero could be as much as three inches low if it's out to 200 yards (2 MOA at 200 yds being 4 inches give or take) and this could mean a low miss or a clipped brisket on a roe deer. Better then to simply look for the secondary zero, in order to eliminate margin for error.

Here's how we can exploit the curve, and to do it we need a ballistic calculator. We input the MV, BC, sight height into the variable fields. Using what we know we choose the zero range, and ask for outputs every 25 yards out to say 300 yards.

The results will give us an idea of what that curve will look like, and how best we can exploit it to give a usable MPBR. We can use the primary zero to adjust the nature of the curve. It may be that for YOUR given round, zeroed at 40 yards the curve will be on at 40, cresting one inch high at around yards, back on secondary zero at 175 yds. You can note the results and then set a different primary zero, to say 50 yds, which will flatten the curve slightly, so cresting at say 125 yards and dropping to secondary zero at 180 yds. This is what to look for...... the maximum point above the line of sight to the point where it re-crosses.

The faster and flatter the round, the further out that primary zero will be to give a crest value within acceptable limits, and thus the further out the secondary zero will be. For example my .308 is zeroed at 40 yds, crests 1.5 inches at 100 and hits secondary zero at 175 yds. I can therefore confidently say that I can use point of aim to hit a deer anywhere from where the scope can focus to 175 yards away knowing the round will strike within an inch or two of the crosshair.

Once you have found your ideal theoretical curve, go and put targets up every 25 yards out to 175 yards and confirm you've got it right by shooting and checking the way the round behaves.

Be realistic and don't forget your limitations. Using the theory won't make you American Sniper/Wyatt Earp overnight, so lose some weight and take a can of smidge with you if you want to tighten your groups up...... there's some very good reasons why the recreational stalker is advised to shoot no further than 150 yds or so.
Click to expand...
I bet my 1.8” really made you wince then, I’d still be happy to take you on inside of a 5” circle at 200 yards off sticks any day of the week. Under NV if you wish…..
 
25 Sharps said:
I bet my 1.8” really made you wince then, I’d still be happy to take you on inside of a 5” circle at 200 yards off sticks any day of the week. Under NV if you wish…..
Click to expand...
No, this is advice to novices…… I’m not questioning the ability of any seasoned stalkers, or those who have mastered the art.

I hate shooting off sticks with a passion but happily concede there are plenty who can.
 
Scapegoat said:
No, this is advice to novices…… I’m not questioning the ability of any seasoned stalkers, or those who have mastered the art.

I hate shooting off sticks with a passion but happily concede there are plenty who can.
Click to expand...
I prefer sticks to bipod, quad sticks mostly as I've switched to using pard instead of the lamp, but the odd time I use the lamp i use bipod sticks, instead of trying to hold still I use a controlled movement onto the target same as shooting freehand which I dont do very often
 
dunwater said:
If you pick a 3”( say 6cms ) circle MPBR works fine inside 220yds, 6-8” circles are for guys back in the 70’s with no range finders.
Click to expand...
Just that - my 25.06 is on zero at 37 yds and 238yds - just under 1.9" high at 100 yds. If you can't get within 240 yards of a beast there is something wrong with your stalking.
 
MPBR is not a method of zeroing.

It is a method to decide which zero distance to choose to get the best compromise "sweet spot" for your rifle, scope and ammunition choice, where you might be able to just "point and shoot" into a zone sufficiently small, for your quarry, without concerning yourself with aiming off, using a graduated reticle, or dialling. On that point, even the 4A. hunting reticle does provide useful alternative aiming points, and/or ways to judge aiming off.

A useful calculator to try out things is at ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator Explore it and it may provide everything that you need to know, a graph for visualisation, windage, drop tables, etc.

For a mobile app., Strelock, obviously.

Fundamentals that you need to know are the muzzle velocity, bullet BC, and 'scope height. You can start by using manufacturers' data for your ammo, or something seemingly similar, or better chrono and use manufacturers bullet BC for reloads, and it's trivially easy to measure your 'scope height.

Given that your choice of chambering, rifle, even ammunition, if you use a particular factory round, are all fixed, the key variable is the 'scope height above the bore. Experiment with the numbers, and you may find some significant advantages to having a higher 'scope. Mounting e.g. a 40mm objective as tight to the barrel as possible might not be as performant as say a 50 or 55 objective higher up, aesthetically pleasing though it might seem.

Once you have refined your ideas, then it's time to zero your setup. Which means zeroing at the exact distance selected.

Trying to approximate by say back-calculating into say x.x inches high at 100 yards is just an approximation. Besides, the shorter the distance at which you try to zero (I consider 100 yards is rather close) the more errors are introduced. If you can't set out your zeroing range at the precise distance you want, then I'd suggest that you at least try to have a fixed target at say 200 yards. As well as 100.

Then again, it is all very well setting up your rifle sitting at a bench, or prone off a bipod or bags, whereas when you use it in the field it will be rather different.

I've had to deal with this a number of times, e.g. when taking out estate rifles. Usually preceded by a "shooting test" the first time out with a new guide. Always they are claimed to be spot on, and the test usually done prone, off a bipod or bags, at approximately100 yards. More or less convincingly.

Went out for a guided stalk once, the "shooting test" went badly (I thought). All three bullets hit the paper but very poor grouping. About 6" ISTR. I had the temerity to slightly criticise the rifle. Which was, of course, "spot on, never missed" etc. etc. So I asked him to shoot it to show me how good it really was. He flat out refused to do so. It would perhaps have done for an unchallenging broadside shot on a fallow etc. to say 150 yards (which we were after), but no better than that IMO. I'm quite certain that I was not "the weakest link" there. Perhaps fortunately no deer were shot at that day.

Whereas I also like to ask to test off my sticks, one shot, or preferably two, for a followup. With a simple A4 printed target, or a dinner sized paper plate with a black target patch stuck in the centre. Again at approx. 100 yards (I say approx. because I know precisely, having LRF binos, and plenty of "100 yard" or "100m" impromptu ranges are well-out, and this does matter.). If I can't hit that, first time, and second, within say at absolute worst a 6" diameter circle around the aimpoint, then the setup is not useful to me.

That's say +/- 3 MOA, including the rifle/ammo contribution (all modern rifles group +/- 0.5 MOA or better we are assured :-| But a group is not the same as shooting POA to POI, every time. From cold bore, a second followup shot, during load development shooting strings after a warmup etc.) Not being boastful, I can shoot most rifles rather better than that, even off sticks. This has once caused an argument, resolved by asking the guide to shoot the rifle himself (his own one), the same. He couldn't hit the A4 or the paper plate at all. I only got one in on the A4, in the far corner. Stalk called off. FWIW he was of the "I don't clean my rifles because they are used every few days, I shoot, deer fall over dead, target shooting is irrelevant to me, I learned to shoot when I was a lad, know what works, and don't need to understand the fancy theory" persuasion.
 
Sharpie said:
MPBR is not a method of zeroing.

It is a method to decide which zero distance to choose to get the best compromise "sweet spot" for your rifle, scope and ammunition choice, where you might be able to just "point and shoot" into a zone sufficiently small, for your quarry, without concerning yourself with aiming off, using a graduated reticle, or dialling. On that point, even the 4A. hunting reticle does provide useful alternative aiming points, and/or ways to judge aiming off.

A useful calculator to try out things is at ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator Explore it and it may provide everything that you need to know, a graph for visualisation, windage, drop tables, etc.

For a mobile app., Strelock, obviously.

Fundamentals that you need to know are the muzzle velocity, bullet BC, and 'scope height. You can start by using manufacturers' data for your ammo, or something seemingly similar, or better chrono and use manufacturers bullet BC for reloads, and it's trivially easy to measure your 'scope height.

Given that your choice of chambering, rifle, even ammunition, if you use a particular factory round, are all fixed, the key variable is the 'scope height above the bore. Experiment with the numbers, and you may find some significant advantages to having a higher 'scope. Mounting e.g. a 40mm objective as tight to the barrel as possible might not be as performant as say a 50 or 55 objective higher up, aesthetically pleasing though it might seem.

Once you have refined your ideas, then it's time to zero your setup. Which means zeroing at the exact distance selected.

Trying to approximate by say back-calculating into say x.x inches high at 100 yards is just an approximation. Besides, the shorter the distance at which you try to zero (I consider 100 yards is rather close) the more errors are introduced. If you can't set out your zeroing range at the precise distance you want, then I'd suggest that you at least try to have a fixed target at say 200 yards. As well as 100.

Then again, it is all very well setting up your rifle sitting at a bench, or prone off a bipod or bags, whereas when you use it in the field it will be rather different.

I've had to deal with this a number of times, e.g. when taking out estate rifles. Usually preceded by a "shooting test" the first time out with a new guide. Always they are claimed to be spot on, and the test usually done prone, off a bipod or bags, at approximately100 yards. More or less convincingly.

Went out for a guided stalk once, the "shooting test" went badly (I thought). All three bullets hit the paper but very poor grouping. About 6" ISTR. I had the temerity to slightly criticise the rifle. Which was, of course, "spot on, never missed" etc. etc. So I asked him to shoot it to show me how good it really was. He flat out refused to do so. It would perhaps have done for an unchallenging broadside shot on a fallow etc. to say 150 yards (which we were after), but no better than that IMO. I'm quite certain that I was not "the weakest link" there. Perhaps fortunately no deer were shot at that day.

Whereas I also like to ask to test off my sticks, one shot, or preferably two, for a followup. With a simple A4 printed target, or a dinner sized paper plate with a black target patch stuck in the centre. Again at approx. 100 yards (I say approx. because I know precisely, having LRF binos, and plenty of "100 yard" or "100m" impromptu ranges are well-out, and this does matter.). If I can't hit that, first time, and second, within say at absolute worst a 6" diameter circle around the aimpoint, then the setup is not useful to me.

That's say +/- 3 MOA, including the rifle/ammo contribution (all modern rifles group +/- 0.5 MOA or better we are assured :-| But a group is not the same as shooting POA to POI, every time. From cold bore, a second followup shot, during load development shooting strings after a warmup etc.) Not being boastful, I can shoot most rifles rather better than that, even off sticks. This has once caused an argument, resolved by asking the guide to shoot the rifle himself (his own one), the same. He couldn't hit the A4 or the paper plate at all. I only got one in on the A4, in the far corner. Stalk called off. FWIW he was of the "I don't clean my rifles because they are used every few days, I shoot, deer fall over dead, target shooting is irrelevant to me, I learned to shoot when I was a lad, know what works, and don't need to understand the fancy theory" persuasion.
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Thanks for taking the time to write that reply very much appreciated 🙏 👌
 
dawnbreaker said:
More like 200 for me lol shooting 223
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Nah. You’ll get into it and find you can do better. Time, practice and a good varmint rifle and you’ll double that.

430m with the .223 Remington a week or so ago.

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