ChesterP
Well-Known Member
I hope I have this in the right place but mods, feel free to move it if not.
First off, a belated Happy New Year to everyone. I have been absent for some time on here due to illness and moving house, but the move highlighted some important issues about getting the FAC and shotgun certs renewed with the new address.
Please read this carefully to avoid falling into the same issues as I encountered as I learned a great deal from the exercise. For those moving, or thinking about it, or even just renewing, Glos have moved the goalposts a little in terms of what they will or will not accept for cabinets and fixings. The main points are:
1. I doesn't matter to them what has previously been passed as acceptable as their new policy over-rides previous advice. Some of this is helpfully quoted on their website. What was once acceptable will no longer be accepted in certain cases, namely:
2. No bolt fixings under M10 are now acceptable, but the preference is for M12's because this is what a standard gun cabinet is now supplied with holes for. M12's are therefore the defacto standard but in some cases, M10's may be accepted providing there are no gaps between openings and bolt heads or washers (any gaps means a fail);
3. Anchor rawbolts are now frowned upon unless into a stable uniform substrate such as concrete, where placing them a little too close to the edge might otherwise crack or bust a masonry or brick wall.
4. The preferred fixing is now 12mm chemical anchor bolts or M12 threaded bar. These must be used if into masonry or brick.
My cabinets were previously passed during a home visit when inspected and used M8 Rawbolts. If I still had those fitted (ie not moved house) my renewal could have been refused unless they were changed to the new standard. Please note as this may affect those of you in the Glos enforcement area.
Now onto the palaver I had using chemical anchors. I started with M12 rawplug capsule fittings, the glass vials containing quartz powder and a fast setting resin. The idea is that you drill the holes 2mm oversize (so 14mm hole for M12 fixings) then place your threaded bar over them once they are sunk flush with the wall. There were no written instructions so I gently tapped the bar with a hammer and twisted the bar in by hand ensuring is was coated with resin and left them. They failed because this didn't distribute the quartz evenly and they pulled straight out. I tried again but this time used a combi frill set to hammer action, put the bar in the chuck and used the combi drill to hammer them home. This is how it was sup[posed to have been done. They also failed. The reason is that limestone masonry is relatively soft compared with brick or concrete and using an M14 drill as per instructions over-bores the hole meaning not enough resign left in capsules to form a secure fixing. My strong advice is not to waste your money on these as a few failed because the resin failed too, presumably as it was past its shelf life even though just bought.
Instead, I strongly recommend using two part grout anchor with a mixing nozzle. I used Rawplug R-Kem II which came from screwfix for £16 odd I think and included two cannisters with half a dozen mixing nozzles. One cannister is more than enough for 8 M12 bolts by the way. Instructions were dire. First off a standard mastic gun is no good, you need to buy a high pressure strengthened mastic gun (£8 odd). You first need to remove the cap off the cannister and look inside where you will find a little metal stud, Using thin nosed pliers, remove this, although the instructions don't mention this, but trust me, it has to be removed as it caps one of the 2 part epoxy internal capsules. Then prime it by pumping 4 inches or so of the grey fluid mix from the end, You will see the white resin hardener appear in one side of the nozzle which is mixed with the grey adhesive.
5. Hole prep: This is important as if you fail to clean the holes out properly, the anchor will not bond with the stone or brick. I had "Cyres" of this parish come over to help me (thanks Dave!) as it is a two man job, trust me!. You start by wedging the cabinet, using wood scraps, into place unless you can have a flush wall mount without skirting boards in the way. One of you holds the cabinet tight to the wall whilst the other marks out the holes using a sharpie permanent pen. Then take the cab down, pilot drill the holes using a 6 to 10mm masonry bit to ensure proper centring before drilling the final holes to 14mm;
6. Next vacuum out as much dust as you can. I used 120mm long bar and for many this will mean the end will end up in cavity (brick) so you need to plug the cavity with whatever you have to hand otherwise you will apply the grout and it will flow in there and not coat the hole fully. You can cut off excess bar later. Now the important bit. Holes must be thoroughly cleaned of dust otherwise the anchors will NOT adhere to the masonry. Top tip, you do not need to buy the pump specifically for this job. We used a set of fire bellows. One pumped the air in and the other held a vacuum nozzle to the hole. You can also use a bicycle pump. Then we used bottle brushes (homecare depot, £3.99 for a set of three). A one inch bottle brush is ideal. clean the hole edges thoroughly, blow the dust and repeat at least 2 or 3 times until happy it's clean. Next;
7. Pump in the grout and follow it out gradually by withdrawing the nozzle. The ideal amount from trial and error is to 15mm or 20mm from the hole entry. Then gently hand twist your bolts in the full way so that you have an inch or so remaining stuck out (cut to suit). Twisting ensures even coating of the threads. The second person should be on hand to scraped any excess off using a putty knife otherwise you'll be left with a blob on the wall which once cured (20 minutes later) will be impossible to removed. Next:
8. Once all 4 bolts are in (or however may you need to use), you both carefully position the cab close to the wall. One person then aligns the bolt heads from the inside whilst one manoeuvres the cab gently as requested. Top tip: Use a flat ruler or pallet knife between the wall and bolt to help align properly. Then you both gently push the cab tight to the wall, one from the top, the other from the bottom. As my cab weighs over 100Kg empty it was definitely a 2 man job!! Once in place, fit the washers to ensure they go flush to the cab (else clean out any offending grout) but NOT the nuts. You need to wedge the cab in position and leave 20 minutes for the grout to cure, then LIGHLTY and by hand, fit the washers and nuts. Leave a further 2 hours, then gently torque one quarter turn from hand nipped up and only after 24 hours, torque another quarter turn. This is plenty tight and secure enough.
The grout is way better to use than the capsules, sets quicker and you ensure that any voids or cracks within the masonry are sealed properly and the blocks stabilised. It can be used into damp walls of older properties too. I do hope that helps as I wasn't expecting it to be such a faff, but an extra set of hands is a must as it is simply not possible to do this yourself if you have a heavy cab that needs lifting and makes the lighter cabs (such as my 2nd one) a lot easier to fit.
Now onto some checks: Glos will fail the installation if there are any visible gaps between wall and cab anywhere, if bolts are smaller than M10 (but M12 preferred) and if any gaps are visible between bolt and openings. They will also fail the installation if the holes are not squarely drilled resulting in bolts being askew internally.
Now I did check the Firearms Act and home office guidelines and found no mention of this specific M12 size nor that chem anchors MUST be used. They just stipulate that fixings must be fit for purpose. Glos have thought about this and to be fair to them have a point about edge fixings cracking stone or brick so I was willing to be pragmatic and re-do my initial installation the way they wanted as peace of mind is given to both security and that it will pass muster.
I do hope that this will prove useful to some of you.
First off, a belated Happy New Year to everyone. I have been absent for some time on here due to illness and moving house, but the move highlighted some important issues about getting the FAC and shotgun certs renewed with the new address.
Please read this carefully to avoid falling into the same issues as I encountered as I learned a great deal from the exercise. For those moving, or thinking about it, or even just renewing, Glos have moved the goalposts a little in terms of what they will or will not accept for cabinets and fixings. The main points are:
1. I doesn't matter to them what has previously been passed as acceptable as their new policy over-rides previous advice. Some of this is helpfully quoted on their website. What was once acceptable will no longer be accepted in certain cases, namely:
2. No bolt fixings under M10 are now acceptable, but the preference is for M12's because this is what a standard gun cabinet is now supplied with holes for. M12's are therefore the defacto standard but in some cases, M10's may be accepted providing there are no gaps between openings and bolt heads or washers (any gaps means a fail);
3. Anchor rawbolts are now frowned upon unless into a stable uniform substrate such as concrete, where placing them a little too close to the edge might otherwise crack or bust a masonry or brick wall.
4. The preferred fixing is now 12mm chemical anchor bolts or M12 threaded bar. These must be used if into masonry or brick.
My cabinets were previously passed during a home visit when inspected and used M8 Rawbolts. If I still had those fitted (ie not moved house) my renewal could have been refused unless they were changed to the new standard. Please note as this may affect those of you in the Glos enforcement area.
Now onto the palaver I had using chemical anchors. I started with M12 rawplug capsule fittings, the glass vials containing quartz powder and a fast setting resin. The idea is that you drill the holes 2mm oversize (so 14mm hole for M12 fixings) then place your threaded bar over them once they are sunk flush with the wall. There were no written instructions so I gently tapped the bar with a hammer and twisted the bar in by hand ensuring is was coated with resin and left them. They failed because this didn't distribute the quartz evenly and they pulled straight out. I tried again but this time used a combi frill set to hammer action, put the bar in the chuck and used the combi drill to hammer them home. This is how it was sup[posed to have been done. They also failed. The reason is that limestone masonry is relatively soft compared with brick or concrete and using an M14 drill as per instructions over-bores the hole meaning not enough resign left in capsules to form a secure fixing. My strong advice is not to waste your money on these as a few failed because the resin failed too, presumably as it was past its shelf life even though just bought.
Instead, I strongly recommend using two part grout anchor with a mixing nozzle. I used Rawplug R-Kem II which came from screwfix for £16 odd I think and included two cannisters with half a dozen mixing nozzles. One cannister is more than enough for 8 M12 bolts by the way. Instructions were dire. First off a standard mastic gun is no good, you need to buy a high pressure strengthened mastic gun (£8 odd). You first need to remove the cap off the cannister and look inside where you will find a little metal stud, Using thin nosed pliers, remove this, although the instructions don't mention this, but trust me, it has to be removed as it caps one of the 2 part epoxy internal capsules. Then prime it by pumping 4 inches or so of the grey fluid mix from the end, You will see the white resin hardener appear in one side of the nozzle which is mixed with the grey adhesive.
5. Hole prep: This is important as if you fail to clean the holes out properly, the anchor will not bond with the stone or brick. I had "Cyres" of this parish come over to help me (thanks Dave!) as it is a two man job, trust me!. You start by wedging the cabinet, using wood scraps, into place unless you can have a flush wall mount without skirting boards in the way. One of you holds the cabinet tight to the wall whilst the other marks out the holes using a sharpie permanent pen. Then take the cab down, pilot drill the holes using a 6 to 10mm masonry bit to ensure proper centring before drilling the final holes to 14mm;
6. Next vacuum out as much dust as you can. I used 120mm long bar and for many this will mean the end will end up in cavity (brick) so you need to plug the cavity with whatever you have to hand otherwise you will apply the grout and it will flow in there and not coat the hole fully. You can cut off excess bar later. Now the important bit. Holes must be thoroughly cleaned of dust otherwise the anchors will NOT adhere to the masonry. Top tip, you do not need to buy the pump specifically for this job. We used a set of fire bellows. One pumped the air in and the other held a vacuum nozzle to the hole. You can also use a bicycle pump. Then we used bottle brushes (homecare depot, £3.99 for a set of three). A one inch bottle brush is ideal. clean the hole edges thoroughly, blow the dust and repeat at least 2 or 3 times until happy it's clean. Next;
7. Pump in the grout and follow it out gradually by withdrawing the nozzle. The ideal amount from trial and error is to 15mm or 20mm from the hole entry. Then gently hand twist your bolts in the full way so that you have an inch or so remaining stuck out (cut to suit). Twisting ensures even coating of the threads. The second person should be on hand to scraped any excess off using a putty knife otherwise you'll be left with a blob on the wall which once cured (20 minutes later) will be impossible to removed. Next:
8. Once all 4 bolts are in (or however may you need to use), you both carefully position the cab close to the wall. One person then aligns the bolt heads from the inside whilst one manoeuvres the cab gently as requested. Top tip: Use a flat ruler or pallet knife between the wall and bolt to help align properly. Then you both gently push the cab tight to the wall, one from the top, the other from the bottom. As my cab weighs over 100Kg empty it was definitely a 2 man job!! Once in place, fit the washers to ensure they go flush to the cab (else clean out any offending grout) but NOT the nuts. You need to wedge the cab in position and leave 20 minutes for the grout to cure, then LIGHLTY and by hand, fit the washers and nuts. Leave a further 2 hours, then gently torque one quarter turn from hand nipped up and only after 24 hours, torque another quarter turn. This is plenty tight and secure enough.
The grout is way better to use than the capsules, sets quicker and you ensure that any voids or cracks within the masonry are sealed properly and the blocks stabilised. It can be used into damp walls of older properties too. I do hope that helps as I wasn't expecting it to be such a faff, but an extra set of hands is a must as it is simply not possible to do this yourself if you have a heavy cab that needs lifting and makes the lighter cabs (such as my 2nd one) a lot easier to fit.
Now onto some checks: Glos will fail the installation if there are any visible gaps between wall and cab anywhere, if bolts are smaller than M10 (but M12 preferred) and if any gaps are visible between bolt and openings. They will also fail the installation if the holes are not squarely drilled resulting in bolts being askew internally.
Now I did check the Firearms Act and home office guidelines and found no mention of this specific M12 size nor that chem anchors MUST be used. They just stipulate that fixings must be fit for purpose. Glos have thought about this and to be fair to them have a point about edge fixings cracking stone or brick so I was willing to be pragmatic and re-do my initial installation the way they wanted as peace of mind is given to both security and that it will pass muster.
I do hope that this will prove useful to some of you.
